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[Music]

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welcome back to the UFO Rabbit Hole

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podcast I'm your host Kelly Chase

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in this episode I wanted to do something

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a little different as the community

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continues to metabolize the stunning

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allegations by high-level intelligence

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official turn UFO whistleblower David

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grush and with more people waking up to

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the significance of the story every day

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the thing I'm hearing most is just that

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people want to talk we want to connect

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about this if there's anything that I've

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learned over the past few years it's

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that this process of dismantling our

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consensus reality and coming to grips

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with a new one that shakes the

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foundations of every Paradigm that we

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have is a team sport we're meant to do

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these things in community

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two weeks ago I had the opportunity to

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spend the weekend with a bunch of really

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bright like-minded people that I've met

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through doing this work and it was

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honestly magical we've come a long way

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in this conversation with the public at

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large but for most of us who have a deep

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interest in this topic we still find

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ourselves censoring and

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compartmentalizing to protect ourselves

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from the stigma we might face for simply

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considering these ideas

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and so being able to gather with a group

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of people and let down those walls and

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give voice to the thoughts and hopes and

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anxieties that emerge when you're coming

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to terms with the realities of a highly

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Advanced non-human presence on this

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planet can be a massive relief it's

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healing and I'd argue that it's

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necessary but I also know how rare those

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moments are and I know that there are so

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many people who are more than ready to

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have those conversations but you still

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haven't found a safe place for that and

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so I wanted to do my best to bring one

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of those conversations to you

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so this week I sat down with my friend

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and colleague Nathan to chat about what

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this journey has been like some of the

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stumbling blocks we've had along the way

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and how we can move forward into this

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strange new reality in a way that is

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healthy and productive and I knew that

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Nathan would be the perfect person to

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have this conversation with Nathan uses

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a mononym because like so many in the

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community including I assume many of you

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listening he's a serious guy with a

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serious job who doesn't necessarily want

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to advertise his interest in UFOs

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but though you won't find his last name

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online what you will find is a bunch of

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phenomenal work Nathan is the co-host of

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two great podcasts liminal frames on

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which he collaborates with Darren King

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AKA EXO academian and calling all beings

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which he co-pilots along with a bunch of

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other wonderful contributors in the

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space including DJ Deb Leah Prime and a

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rotating lineup of other friends

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what I appreciate so much about Nathan

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is his rational yet deeply

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human-centered approach to the UFO

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phenomenon he manages to navigate the

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deepest and most treacherous Waters of

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this topic while still remaining

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grounded and without ever losing focus

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on the things that matter most our

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relationships and connections with each

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other

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Nathan is exactly the kind of friend

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that you'd want to have this kind of

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conversation with and I hope you enjoy

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this chat as much as I did and may we

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all move forward from this episode with

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the intention of being that kind of

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friend for others in the future who will

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soon be going through this too

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hey Nathan welcome to the show I'm so

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happy you're here how have you been

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doing these last few weeks I haven't

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gotten to catch up with you since the

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whole whistleblower news dropped and I'd

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love to hear what's going on in your

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uh I've been I've been good Kelly it's

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great to be with you and to be speaking

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with you and your audience it's been a

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crazy couple of weeks absolutely crazy

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and of course we had a lot of lead up to

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the grocery uh event there was a lot of

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hype if you recall in the UFO community

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that something big was company and

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coming something Earth shattering yada

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yada yada the hype train was in full

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force and when it finally arrived I

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don't know how you felt about it I was

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in some ways kind of prepared I was like

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okay here it is and it is pretty big at

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least I felt that it was pretty big but

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at the same time as the days went on

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during that week you're kind of like

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okay is it going to get more traction

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more traction and it kind of did it did

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roll a little bit further downhill and

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get picked up by quite a few other

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outlets and certainly kicked off a lot

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of other conversation on some particular

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platforms but I think those of us who've

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been really close to this wanted it to

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just sort of explode and the way that

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that it really hasn't happened like

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quite like that it's maybe caused a

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little bit of frustration I don't know

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about where you land on this but I've

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gone through a series of different

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emotional kind of States about it yeah I

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completely agree with that it's been

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there was a little bit of frustration

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that it didn't get more coverage as much

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as we see it all the time it continues

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to be kind of a remarkable thing to see

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the way that this information just sort

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of like slides off people's brains like

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it just will not

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stick and it's easy to get frustrated

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but I've also been there you know for

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most of my life the stuff just kind of

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slid off of me so I completely resonate

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with how that happens I understand how

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that happens but it's still a crazy and

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remarkable thing to watch it happen in

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real time and also just feeling my own

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level of shock I don't think the garage

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said anything that I hadn't heard before

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that I didn't suspect might be true in

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some fashion or another and yet to

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really hear it coming out of the mouth

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of such a high level intelligence

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official who's gone on the record with

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Congress was

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yeah it makes it real in a way but it

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maybe wasn't as real before and trying

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to process that has been complicated

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yeah absolutely I agree with you as much

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as you and I are prepared for the

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reality of this seeing it land in some

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of these official places it makes it

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more real and I think it hits you in new

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ways that you can't really be prepared

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for it sort of like when you ask

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expecting parents you know are you ready

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to be parents you're ready to have this

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baby and you can't no one can say yes

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you can't be trained on how to raise a

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baby you just have to do it every day

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and then you get good at it or at least

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you don't kill the child right

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so that's sort of where we are we're

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living through this in real time we're

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coping with it in real time and it's

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integrating it's further integrating

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into our model of reality which I know

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we're going to talk quite a bit about on

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the show yeah absolutely and I'm excited

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to dive into all of that I'd love to

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start by just having you introduce

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yourself a little bit I know you've got

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like one put out of the UFO closet but

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you don't do last names and details but

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if you could just give people kind of an

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idea of who you are that would be great

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sure yeah so I am a little bit Anonymous

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I do try to straddle the world a little

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bit there I recognize that once you lift

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the veil you can't really put it back so

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I do try to keep it there for the time

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being but my background is interesting I

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guess to in some ways I think is well

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suited to this topic I grew up in a

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Christian tradition my father was a

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minister and a liberal Baptist Church I

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grew up as a what we would call like a

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progressive Christian household and then

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I went to college got a degree and

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decided I wanted to go to Seminary to

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pursue that even further and I came from

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kind of this academic perspective that

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if I could just learn more about

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Christianity the nature of those beliefs

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all the different theologies Etc that it

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would get me closer to the reality of

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this relationship with God right that

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was my perspective on the entire thing

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that didn't work out as planned so going

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through that experience was really you

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know ontological shock is the best

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phrase I can distinctly remember being

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early on in that process sitting in my

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car in the parking lot after a late

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night class and just

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realizing that

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none of it made sense anymore and the

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world that I had been brought up in is

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loving caring open-minded as that was it

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wasn't adequate enough for me to

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reconstruct all this content and

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integrate it into my life so I was

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looking I was facing down this path of

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complete uncertainty about my future

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so I decided that I would finish the

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degree and I did serve a small Church

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during that time I worked with some

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homeless folks in the community that was

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one of the Ministries that I was

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involved in

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and then went on to have just a

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professional career and a totally

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different separate field I've always

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been into the Sci-Fi stuff though and lo

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and behold when the 2017 article came

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along like that was like the green light

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for me to really get into this

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conversation a lot more intensely so I'm

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now the co-host of two shows calling all

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beings which I share with some wonderful

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co-hosts so DJ Deb Leah we've got Frank

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from UFO thinker who shows up from time

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to time we've got a lot of folks that

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jump in and share their voice with us we

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got Matt from big Bigfoot Crossroads

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we're doing some Bigfoot stuff as well

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it's a community focused show it's

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really trying to be present to people

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who have interesting strange experiences

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and we're wrestling with this material

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together in a very public way in a way

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that tries to I think validate those

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experiences be a listening ear and see

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what we can learn from that where we can

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integrate it we can and where we can't

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and that's really an important part of

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the work that I do in this space the

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other show that I'm a co-host on is

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liminal frames with Darren King also

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known as EXO academian so liminal frames

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is really kind of that other side of

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myself it's sort of really getting into

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the weeds thoughtful conversation

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exploring the Contours of what the

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phenomena May mean for us both

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personally and culturally spiritually

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all the different aspects of The Human

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Experience we're trying to cover that

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kind of ground we're also trying to

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stretch our lit listeners you know kind

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of giving them tools that they can use

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to navigate this content because it is

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really discombobulating that's our kind

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of favorite word we like to use on the

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show it'll turn your world upside down

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and we're trying to give folks the

273
00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:39,660
things that they can use to approach the

274
00:10:44,329 --> 00:10:42,240
content and examine it and try to

275
00:10:46,490 --> 00:10:44,339
integrate it into their own models of

276
00:10:47,569 --> 00:10:46,500
reality so that's the work that I'm

277
00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:47,579
doing in the community I think it

278
00:10:50,990 --> 00:10:49,260
represents who I am I'm a person that

279
00:10:52,910 --> 00:10:51,000
loves people but I also really like to

280
00:10:55,550 --> 00:10:52,920
have these kinds of in-depth

281
00:10:57,470 --> 00:10:55,560
conversations that's awesome and I'm a

282
00:10:59,690 --> 00:10:57,480
huge fan of liminal frames and calling

283
00:11:02,449 --> 00:10:59,700
all beings you've got a great group of

284
00:11:04,490 --> 00:11:02,459
co-conspirators in both has got a lot of

285
00:11:08,329 --> 00:11:04,500
love for all those people so thank you

286
00:11:10,190 --> 00:11:08,339
big fan so what got you into UFOs I mean

287
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:10,200
we talked a little bit about the 2017

288
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,720
article was that sort of just like the

289
00:11:15,889 --> 00:11:14,399
starting whistle for you what is your

290
00:11:17,690 --> 00:11:15,899
background with regard to the phenomenon

291
00:11:20,090 --> 00:11:17,700
did it just start as a curiosity or have

292
00:11:22,069 --> 00:11:20,100
you seen a UFO where were you coming

293
00:11:23,690 --> 00:11:22,079
from with that yeah great questions I'm

294
00:11:25,430 --> 00:11:23,700
not an experiencer kind of in the

295
00:11:27,949 --> 00:11:25,440
traditional sense I've always had an

296
00:11:31,490 --> 00:11:27,959
interest in UFOs I mean I grew up in the

297
00:11:33,889 --> 00:11:31,500
80s 90s Unsolved Mysteries you know UFO

298
00:11:36,769 --> 00:11:33,899
stories were always interesting to me

299
00:11:39,050 --> 00:11:36,779
Star Trek kid Star Wars kid all of these

300
00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:39,060
kinds of things held my Fascination and

301
00:11:43,670 --> 00:11:41,279
still do I love the way that sci-fi

302
00:11:46,910 --> 00:11:43,680
explores real human problems but through

303
00:11:48,829 --> 00:11:46,920
an imaginative lens so I had an interest

304
00:11:50,630 --> 00:11:48,839
in it from that standpoint and always

305
00:11:52,610 --> 00:11:50,640
felt that there was something strange

306
00:11:54,350 --> 00:11:52,620
about these experiences that we couldn't

307
00:11:56,990 --> 00:11:54,360
explain and warranted further

308
00:12:00,050 --> 00:11:57,000
explanation I also I think I remember

309
00:12:02,690 --> 00:12:00,060
early in maybe it was the mid 2010s I

310
00:12:04,490 --> 00:12:02,700
saw an article I forget where it was it

311
00:12:06,110 --> 00:12:04,500
was some like technology blog or

312
00:12:08,750 --> 00:12:06,120
something that talked about how Tom

313
00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:08,760
Delong this singer from Blink 182 was

314
00:12:12,889 --> 00:12:11,220
interested in UFOs and I just thought

315
00:12:14,990 --> 00:12:12,899
man this is weird you know what is this

316
00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:15,000
about and I read that and I thought oh I

317
00:12:18,710 --> 00:12:16,140
mean they're you know maybe there's more

318
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:18,720
to this than I really thought before and

319
00:12:23,690 --> 00:12:20,880
then subsequently after that we all

320
00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:23,700
remember when the December 2017 New York

321
00:12:28,190 --> 00:12:25,200
Times piece came out and at that point

322
00:12:30,110 --> 00:12:28,200
it was like all right this is there this

323
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:30,120
is real you know we got to look at this

324
00:12:33,050 --> 00:12:31,440
more closely let's try to understand

325
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:33,060
this and that's when I really got

326
00:12:38,509 --> 00:12:35,760
heavily invested in the topic but I

327
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:38,519
think outside of the UFO

328
00:12:42,650 --> 00:12:41,519
experience itself yeah I've always had

329
00:12:44,629 --> 00:12:42,660
this kind of sense that there's

330
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,639
something else about reality that we

331
00:12:49,310 --> 00:12:46,800
don't really understand that our kind of

332
00:12:51,530 --> 00:12:49,320
current models don't do a good job of

333
00:12:53,269 --> 00:12:51,540
grappling with and that comes from my

334
00:12:56,030 --> 00:12:53,279
background in the spiritual tradition

335
00:12:58,129 --> 00:12:56,040
you know so growing up with people who

336
00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:58,139
were having conversations with a

337
00:13:01,370 --> 00:13:00,000
non-human intelligence all the time they

338
00:13:03,710 --> 00:13:01,380
just don't call it that they're calling

339
00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:03,720
it prayer and they're talking to God and

340
00:13:08,810 --> 00:13:06,240
they're getting messages from God and so

341
00:13:10,490 --> 00:13:08,820
that was pretty comfortable for me to

342
00:13:13,069 --> 00:13:10,500
try to understand that integrate that

343
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:13,079
into my experience as a young person but

344
00:13:18,110 --> 00:13:14,880
it didn't make sense like how were these

345
00:13:20,569 --> 00:13:18,120
experiences real compared to the way in

346
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:20,579
which the modern world says things are

347
00:13:25,310 --> 00:13:23,519
real and then to add to that how do all

348
00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:25,320
these different religious Traditions

349
00:13:30,829 --> 00:13:27,420
from the past have so many different

350
00:13:33,050 --> 00:13:30,839
examples of interaction with non-human

351
00:13:36,590 --> 00:13:33,060
intelligence and phenomena that we just

352
00:13:39,650 --> 00:13:36,600
write off as oh that was Pure Fantasy I

353
00:13:41,389 --> 00:13:39,660
find that to be quite confusing in our

354
00:13:43,910 --> 00:13:41,399
current world like to have these two

355
00:13:45,889 --> 00:13:43,920
different realities and I think

356
00:13:47,569 --> 00:13:45,899
modernity for me is quite frankly pretty

357
00:13:49,190 --> 00:13:47,579
frustrating because it came along and

358
00:13:52,129 --> 00:13:49,200
sort of just said you know what all that

359
00:13:55,310 --> 00:13:52,139
stuff is just nothing it's delusional

360
00:13:57,650 --> 00:13:55,320
it's fantasy these were people who were

361
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:57,660
maybe opportunists who were duping their

362
00:14:02,030 --> 00:14:00,000
followers into believing these things or

363
00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:02,040
they were completely ignorant and we're

364
00:14:06,170 --> 00:14:04,260
much more educated now we know that was

365
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:06,180
you know there was nothing to that or

366
00:14:10,670 --> 00:14:08,399
some combination of those factors so

367
00:14:12,530 --> 00:14:10,680
I've always had this kind of sense in

368
00:14:15,230 --> 00:14:12,540
which there's something out there so

369
00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:15,240
I've experienced it maybe second hand is

370
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:17,880
the way to describe it and then one area

371
00:14:22,670 --> 00:14:20,639
that I want to touch on a little bit is

372
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:22,680
kind of the way in which time is funny

373
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:24,240
right so I know you've talked a little

374
00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:26,399
bit about some of this on your show how

375
00:14:32,389 --> 00:14:28,920
we're learning about space time and how

376
00:14:34,129 --> 00:14:32,399
it may not be fundamental to reality and

377
00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:34,139
I've been thinking a lot about that that

378
00:14:40,069 --> 00:14:36,540
is true then a lot of the experiences

379
00:14:42,470 --> 00:14:40,079
which we have in life we can come back

380
00:14:43,850 --> 00:14:42,480
to them with a fresh perspective you

381
00:14:45,650 --> 00:14:43,860
know we tend to think that we had an

382
00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:45,660
experience that influenced us and then

383
00:14:50,569 --> 00:14:48,480
it dictated what we did next but if

384
00:14:52,930 --> 00:14:50,579
space-time is not fundamental in the way

385
00:14:55,129 --> 00:14:52,940
that we've been taught then there's a

386
00:14:56,930 --> 00:14:55,139
interrelationship between all of the

387
00:14:58,790 --> 00:14:56,940
events of our life there's a

388
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,800
connectivity between What's Happening

389
00:15:02,930 --> 00:15:00,480
Now what happened in the past what

390
00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:02,940
happens in the future these things are

391
00:15:07,129 --> 00:15:04,680
working together and in their

392
00:15:08,569 --> 00:15:07,139
togetherness as they interrelate meaning

393
00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:08,579
comes out of them and I think we all

394
00:15:13,970 --> 00:15:11,519
understand this on an intuitive level as

395
00:15:16,069 --> 00:15:13,980
we re-examine the events of our own past

396
00:15:19,069 --> 00:15:16,079
and we think oh you know I used to

397
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,079
believe that this event in my past meant

398
00:15:23,329 --> 00:15:21,360
this and I interpreted it this way it

399
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:23,339
influenced my life maybe for 10 years

400
00:15:28,069 --> 00:15:25,440
but now I've come to realize that's not

401
00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:28,079
what it was it was something else and

402
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:30,360
now I'm a different person because I'm

403
00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:31,920
looking at it from a wholly different

404
00:15:36,889 --> 00:15:34,980
perspective so I think we need to keep

405
00:15:39,410 --> 00:15:36,899
that in mind as we look at this UFO

406
00:15:41,569 --> 00:15:39,420
phenomenon because there are aspects of

407
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:41,579
it that work in that way but it's really

408
00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:43,440
difficult for us to get our minds around

409
00:15:47,629 --> 00:15:45,060
because we just can't get away from

410
00:15:50,030 --> 00:15:47,639
thinking ABC in the way that things are

411
00:15:51,710 --> 00:15:50,040
ordered yeah I really resonate with that

412
00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:51,720
I mean I was coming into this

413
00:15:55,370 --> 00:15:53,339
conversation from kind of the opposite

414
00:15:59,329 --> 00:15:55,380
end of the spectrum from like a very

415
00:16:03,050 --> 00:15:59,339
materialist atheistic worldview and it's

416
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:03,060
striking to me now how willing I was to

417
00:16:08,569 --> 00:16:06,000
go along with a world view that just

418
00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:08,579
completely ignored something that was so

419
00:16:14,810 --> 00:16:12,660
fundamental to The Human Experience you

420
00:16:16,730 --> 00:16:14,820
know you see that many people a majority

421
00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:16,740
of people it seems in this country have

422
00:16:22,009 --> 00:16:19,320
a sense that there is some sort of an

423
00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:22,019
unseen realm a higher purpose in

424
00:16:25,910 --> 00:16:24,120
whatever way that manifests for them and

425
00:16:27,949 --> 00:16:25,920
so just being willing to discredit that

426
00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:27,959
many people but also

427
00:16:33,170 --> 00:16:30,600
the ways in which I didn't see the

428
00:16:35,689 --> 00:16:33,180
Unseen elements at play in my own life

429
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:35,699
and those kind of emergent connections

430
00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:37,920
and meaningful events that you're kind

431
00:16:43,430 --> 00:16:40,500
of referencing our modern Viewpoint

432
00:16:45,590 --> 00:16:43,440
really just amputates that entire part

433
00:16:47,689 --> 00:16:45,600
of what it means to be a human and says

434
00:16:49,249 --> 00:16:47,699
kind of like you pay no attention to the

435
00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:49,259
man behind the curtain and if you do

436
00:16:53,810 --> 00:16:51,120
you're crazy or you're ignorant or

437
00:16:57,110 --> 00:16:53,820
you're a religious nut or something your

438
00:16:59,090 --> 00:16:57,120
tinfoil Hatter yeah it's a striking

439
00:17:01,730 --> 00:16:59,100
world view to recognize when you lived

440
00:17:05,090 --> 00:17:01,740
inside of it most of your life yeah I

441
00:17:07,909 --> 00:17:05,100
mean 100 I think it's difficult to

442
00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:07,919
navigate this territory right so it's

443
00:17:12,890 --> 00:17:09,720
difficult to balance all the different

444
00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:12,900
accounts that we hear of the phenomena

445
00:17:17,150 --> 00:17:14,880
the experiences the interpretations

446
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:17,160
there are so many books and you and I

447
00:17:20,210 --> 00:17:18,720
both love them we wouldn't have the

448
00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:20,220
budget to buy them all there's so many

449
00:17:25,010 --> 00:17:23,160
books that talk about this UFO phenomena

450
00:17:27,110 --> 00:17:25,020
and all the other subjects that that

451
00:17:28,789 --> 00:17:27,120
intersect with it there's a ton of

452
00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:28,799
content out there and I think when you

453
00:17:32,690 --> 00:17:31,260
get into that this is one of the

454
00:17:33,770 --> 00:17:32,700
challenges right this is one of the

455
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:33,780
things I've struggled with certainly

456
00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:36,000
with it is how do you navigate all these

457
00:17:39,770 --> 00:17:38,160
different kinds of experiences and

458
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:39,780
accounts it really will spin you around

459
00:17:43,250 --> 00:17:41,039
and you won't necessarily be able to

460
00:17:44,330 --> 00:17:43,260
figure out what direction is up part of

461
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:44,340
that speaks to the fact that it's

462
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:45,600
something that you touched on is that

463
00:17:50,210 --> 00:17:48,240
our language and our models of reality

464
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:50,220
like none of them are particularly well

465
00:17:57,230 --> 00:17:53,039
suited for these things and so we're not

466
00:18:00,650 --> 00:17:57,240
really given the tools to navigate this

467
00:18:03,529 --> 00:18:00,660
kind of material we are all very well

468
00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:03,539
steeped in the physicalist materialist

469
00:18:07,010 --> 00:18:05,340
way of looking at the world at least in

470
00:18:08,330 --> 00:18:07,020
the west is how we are raised how we

471
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:08,340
grow up how we look at everything that

472
00:18:11,330 --> 00:18:09,360
takes place

473
00:18:12,950 --> 00:18:11,340
and so these experiences even though

474
00:18:15,289 --> 00:18:12,960
just as you pointed out I think

475
00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:15,299
everybody has them to some degree or

476
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,400
another then they influence us in

477
00:18:21,890 --> 00:18:19,679
extremely significant ways but we

478
00:18:24,350 --> 00:18:21,900
relegate them to this kind of goopy

479
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:24,360
fantasy space that doesn't really have

480
00:18:29,210 --> 00:18:27,840
the weight of the scientific method or

481
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:29,220
whatever it is that we've come to

482
00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:32,160
epitomize as the Pinnacle of knowledge

483
00:18:36,289 --> 00:18:34,080
in our current culture so if you do

484
00:18:39,169 --> 00:18:36,299
decide to give these things Credence

485
00:18:41,630 --> 00:18:39,179
which you and I have you basically opted

486
00:18:44,330 --> 00:18:41,640
to place yourself into these really

487
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:44,340
treacherous Waters or you're trying to

488
00:18:48,830 --> 00:18:46,320
navigate this deep

489
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:48,840
into the pool and also just be present

490
00:18:52,250 --> 00:18:50,160
to people who are still going about

491
00:18:53,750 --> 00:18:52,260
their lives in the shallow end and

492
00:18:55,490 --> 00:18:53,760
you're trying to do both of these things

493
00:18:57,350 --> 00:18:55,500
at once and it's very difficult I mean

494
00:18:58,850 --> 00:18:57,360
if anyone is a swimmer you'll know you

495
00:19:00,350 --> 00:18:58,860
can tread water for a while and it's

496
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,360
great exercise but you can't tread water

497
00:19:05,390 --> 00:19:02,640
indefinitely so you have to find a way

498
00:19:07,549 --> 00:19:05,400
to Anchor yourself somehow to the side

499
00:19:09,950 --> 00:19:07,559
or get back to the shallow end and kind

500
00:19:11,390 --> 00:19:09,960
of Traverse those two worlds and I think

501
00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:11,400
that's some of the work that we're doing

502
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:12,900
now you and I are doing our colleagues

503
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:14,640
are doing we're trying to navigate these

504
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:16,559
two spaces and it's really really

505
00:19:21,409 --> 00:19:18,960
challenging it can be quite exhausting

506
00:19:24,230 --> 00:19:21,419
yeah absolutely I think it's something

507
00:19:25,669 --> 00:19:24,240
everybody in the community is feeling to

508
00:19:27,950 --> 00:19:25,679
some degree or another

509
00:19:29,930 --> 00:19:27,960
I'd love to talk through what the

510
00:19:33,049 --> 00:19:29,940
process was like for you how has your

511
00:19:34,669 --> 00:19:33,059
view of UFOs changed over time and what

512
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:34,679
would you say accounted for the most

513
00:19:39,230 --> 00:19:36,360
major shifts in perspective that you

514
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:39,240
encountered yeah I mean just like you my

515
00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:42,000
on-ramp to this was that nuts and bolts

516
00:19:46,490 --> 00:19:44,760
uh and the ET hypothesis right these are

517
00:19:49,490 --> 00:19:46,500
the things that were the easiest for me

518
00:19:51,950 --> 00:19:49,500
to relate with I had been taught these

519
00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:51,960
things through movies and books growing

520
00:19:57,409 --> 00:19:55,440
up so the notion that

521
00:19:59,450 --> 00:19:57,419
here are some craft and they came from

522
00:20:02,029 --> 00:19:59,460
another planet another civilization the

523
00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:02,039
universe is huge and of course there are

524
00:20:04,909 --> 00:20:03,720
other intelligent civilizations out

525
00:20:07,430 --> 00:20:04,919
there and of course they've got

526
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:07,440
technology that is far superior than our

527
00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:10,140
own so yeah it's not implausible that

528
00:20:13,850 --> 00:20:12,240
they could be here that's something we

529
00:20:15,650 --> 00:20:13,860
would do if we could do it we would

530
00:20:17,270 --> 00:20:15,660
definitely do it we would go I'd be

531
00:20:18,770 --> 00:20:17,280
hopping on that spaceship and going to

532
00:20:20,690 --> 00:20:18,780
visit close to planets and checking them

533
00:20:23,029 --> 00:20:20,700
out so I think that's something that we

534
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:23,039
can easily relately to and it makes it

535
00:20:27,289 --> 00:20:24,720
the best place to kind of get into the

536
00:20:29,210 --> 00:20:27,299
topic that certainly was true for me but

537
00:20:30,590 --> 00:20:29,220
that's like the gateway drug before you

538
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:30,600
go down the rabbit hole this is what you

539
00:20:34,549 --> 00:20:32,760
start with so once you fall down that

540
00:20:36,830 --> 00:20:34,559
hole I think it becomes very challenging

541
00:20:38,810 --> 00:20:36,840
the content that has helped me the most

542
00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:38,820
or really shifted my perspective the

543
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:41,700
most was when Darren introduced me to

544
00:20:45,650 --> 00:20:44,640
analytic idealism from Bernardo Castro I

545
00:20:47,570 --> 00:20:45,660
know you probably touched on some of

546
00:20:50,029 --> 00:20:47,580
this on your show for those who haven't

547
00:20:52,250 --> 00:20:50,039
I would highly encourage you to go check

548
00:20:54,770 --> 00:20:52,260
out there's I think it's a six-part

549
00:20:56,990 --> 00:20:54,780
course on analytic idealism from the

550
00:20:58,730 --> 00:20:57,000
foundation on YouTube so if you search

551
00:21:00,430 --> 00:20:58,740
for Essentia Foundation you'll find it

552
00:21:02,810 --> 00:21:00,440
it's not

553
00:21:04,909 --> 00:21:02,820
incredibly light material so if you're

554
00:21:08,330 --> 00:21:04,919
going to go take a look at this just be

555
00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:08,340
prepared to go slow sit with it but I

556
00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:10,860
found that analytic idealism as well as

557
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:12,960
the work of others like Donald Hoffman

558
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:16,320
and to some extent Thomas Campbell have

559
00:21:20,270 --> 00:21:18,480
really helped influence and change the

560
00:21:23,390 --> 00:21:20,280
way that I think about the entire

561
00:21:25,610 --> 00:21:23,400
Enterprise and really not just UFOs but

562
00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:25,620
I think everything right it changes your

563
00:21:31,130 --> 00:21:28,559
entire ontology once you sort of adopt a

564
00:21:32,990 --> 00:21:31,140
different metaphysical perspective on

565
00:21:35,149 --> 00:21:33,000
reality for me I came from a background

566
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,159
that was pretty comfortable in

567
00:21:39,770 --> 00:21:37,200
re-examining what we call in seminary

568
00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:39,780
like models of God so if you're a

569
00:21:44,090 --> 00:21:42,000
believer of any kind of Faith you have a

570
00:21:46,130 --> 00:21:44,100
model which that belief structure works

571
00:21:48,169 --> 00:21:46,140
with them and you have a model of your

572
00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:48,179
you know the deity that you're

573
00:21:52,130 --> 00:21:50,340
worshiping or following but there's just

574
00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:52,140
one model and there are many models

575
00:21:55,490 --> 00:21:53,940
every faith has many models and how they

576
00:21:58,250 --> 00:21:55,500
understand that to be so I did a lot of

577
00:22:00,350 --> 00:21:58,260
that work in seminary so it wasn't too

578
00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:00,360
hard for me to take on idealism and say

579
00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:01,500
oh wait a minute here's a different

580
00:22:06,649 --> 00:22:03,900
model of reality I can kind of entertain

581
00:22:08,450 --> 00:22:06,659
this and go with it so once I really

582
00:22:10,970 --> 00:22:08,460
picked that up and integrated it began

583
00:22:13,669 --> 00:22:10,980
integrating it with my experiences in

584
00:22:16,250 --> 00:22:13,679
the space it kind of changed everything

585
00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:16,260
it changed the entire cosmology because

586
00:22:20,270 --> 00:22:17,940
what it does essentially say that

587
00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:20,280
everything in reality is mental

588
00:22:25,970 --> 00:22:23,460
the phenomena is taking place in our

589
00:22:28,130 --> 00:22:25,980
mental space that matter isn't

590
00:22:31,490 --> 00:22:28,140
fundamental matter is an emergent

591
00:22:32,810 --> 00:22:31,500
property of mental activity and so when

592
00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:32,820
you start looking at the world in that

593
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:35,280
way it can explain why some of these

594
00:22:40,310 --> 00:22:38,159
phenomenal experiences can appear and

595
00:22:43,010 --> 00:22:40,320
disappear within our awareness within

596
00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:43,020
our cognition but that that raises new

597
00:22:46,010 --> 00:22:44,940
sort of challenges right idealism like

598
00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:46,020
if you're like yeah I like this this

599
00:22:50,270 --> 00:22:47,880
makes a lot of sense it kind of opens up

600
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:50,280
some other problems in a way because

601
00:22:53,630 --> 00:22:52,080
once you go everything's mental well

602
00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:53,640
then geez like is everything on the

603
00:22:58,010 --> 00:22:55,500
table anything I can imagine is real

604
00:23:01,610 --> 00:22:58,020
because difficult I think to firmly

605
00:23:02,930 --> 00:23:01,620
ground yourself in that material so just

606
00:23:04,370 --> 00:23:02,940
a word of caution for folks who are

607
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,380
going to go check it out I think it's

608
00:23:09,169 --> 00:23:06,960
incredibly useful and helpful as a way

609
00:23:11,570 --> 00:23:09,179
to understand the UFO phenomena as well

610
00:23:13,909 --> 00:23:11,580
as other Associated phenomena but it is

611
00:23:15,770 --> 00:23:13,919
also not without its challenges and it

612
00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:15,780
could give you an additional layer of

613
00:23:19,430 --> 00:23:18,360
ontological shock if you choose to adopt

614
00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:19,440
it

615
00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:22,020
absolutely and for listeners we will be

616
00:23:25,310 --> 00:23:23,640
getting into more of that in part three

617
00:23:27,830 --> 00:23:25,320
of the waking up inside the cave series

618
00:23:30,110 --> 00:23:27,840
which will drop in July but if you want

619
00:23:31,789 --> 00:23:30,120
to get a head start on that the six part

620
00:23:34,909 --> 00:23:31,799
series I'll link to that in the episode

621
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:34,919
brief from Bernardo Castro fantastic and

622
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:36,960
also the case against Reality by Donald

623
00:23:41,510 --> 00:23:39,840
Hoffman is another one that I highly

624
00:23:44,029 --> 00:23:41,520
recommend if these ideas pique your

625
00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:44,039
curiosity because yeah I think that for

626
00:23:48,169 --> 00:23:45,840
many of us who go deep down this rabbit

627
00:23:50,210 --> 00:23:48,179
hole we end up in this place where you

628
00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:50,220
start asking about UFOs and then somehow

629
00:23:54,110 --> 00:23:52,020
you're asking about the nature of

630
00:23:56,149 --> 00:23:54,120
reality and what it is and

631
00:23:58,750 --> 00:23:56,159
what's going on here and then you end up

632
00:24:01,430 --> 00:23:58,760
really interrogating the nature of

633
00:24:03,710 --> 00:24:01,440
knowledge and then Consciousness and

634
00:24:06,590 --> 00:24:03,720
then your own awareness and you know you

635
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:06,600
start by asking about this thing that's

636
00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:08,640
so far outside of you and so different

637
00:24:11,950 --> 00:24:10,200
from you and so different than your

638
00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:11,960
context that it's hard to even

639
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:13,860
conceptualize and then the questions

640
00:24:18,890 --> 00:24:16,080
ultimately end up being like who am I

641
00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:18,900
what am I what am I doing here

642
00:24:22,909 --> 00:24:20,760
you know just a light afternoon yeah

643
00:24:25,250 --> 00:24:22,919
just pretty easy materials and navigate

644
00:24:27,049 --> 00:24:25,260
there yeah and it can be really

645
00:24:29,090 --> 00:24:27,059
disorienting though I've been saying

646
00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:29,100
lately that I actually find UFOs to be

647
00:24:33,830 --> 00:24:31,200
the least interesting thing about UFOs

648
00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:33,840
yeah right I mean to be honest I'm kind

649
00:24:38,930 --> 00:24:35,760
of done with here's a neat UFO video

650
00:24:40,669 --> 00:24:38,940
here's a neat UFO picture none of those

651
00:24:44,149 --> 00:24:40,679
things are really important to me

652
00:24:45,590 --> 00:24:44,159
because I'm not as I won't say I have no

653
00:24:48,350 --> 00:24:45,600
interest in them like yeah of course I

654
00:24:50,090 --> 00:24:48,360
want to see a UFO I want to see the

655
00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:50,100
craft I want to understand what it does

656
00:24:55,789 --> 00:24:52,500
just as much into technology as anyone

657
00:24:58,310 --> 00:24:55,799
else but I think it is ultimately not

658
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:58,320
the point it's not the entire point it's

659
00:25:02,930 --> 00:25:00,480
not the whole ball game you know there

660
00:25:05,090 --> 00:25:02,940
are more important things than UFOs and

661
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:05,100
we need to really feel into what those

662
00:25:10,430 --> 00:25:07,440
things are and I think that's incredibly

663
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:10,440
important right now because there's a

664
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:13,200
lot of expectation that these incredible

665
00:25:18,409 --> 00:25:15,360
secrets are going to be revealed and

666
00:25:21,049 --> 00:25:18,419
this light will be cast on the Shadows

667
00:25:23,270 --> 00:25:21,059
that have been there for so long and and

668
00:25:24,769 --> 00:25:23,280
this technology right the technology is

669
00:25:26,510 --> 00:25:24,779
going to change the world we're going to

670
00:25:28,370 --> 00:25:26,520
have free energy and we're going to have

671
00:25:30,649 --> 00:25:28,380
incredible travel and all this kind of

672
00:25:33,649 --> 00:25:30,659
stuff these are really I think an

673
00:25:35,870 --> 00:25:33,659
extension of our anxieties and they're

674
00:25:38,570 --> 00:25:35,880
like these salvific hopes that we placed

675
00:25:40,909 --> 00:25:38,580
on the UFO phenomenon itself and I think

676
00:25:43,610 --> 00:25:40,919
we really need to sit with that and be

677
00:25:46,610 --> 00:25:43,620
ready to have that challenged because

678
00:25:48,769 --> 00:25:46,620
I'm not necessarily sure that the end of

679
00:25:50,510 --> 00:25:48,779
this secrecy is going to solve the

680
00:25:51,890 --> 00:25:50,520
problems that people wanted to solve and

681
00:25:53,930 --> 00:25:51,900
you and I both know there are a lot of

682
00:25:56,390 --> 00:25:53,940
people in the community who very much

683
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:56,400
look to this as when this is when this

684
00:25:59,149 --> 00:25:57,840
happens like everything is going to be

685
00:26:01,130 --> 00:25:59,159
better for me this is what I've been

686
00:26:03,710 --> 00:26:01,140
waiting for and I'm afraid that's not

687
00:26:06,289 --> 00:26:03,720
true and once you get past that

688
00:26:08,930 --> 00:26:06,299
concept you have to then say well what

689
00:26:10,970 --> 00:26:08,940
is going to help me what is better for

690
00:26:12,590 --> 00:26:10,980
me to do and I think that's the

691
00:26:14,930 --> 00:26:12,600
important work that we really have to do

692
00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:14,940
is is think about those questions

693
00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:17,640
because that will help you regardless of

694
00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:19,320
what happens right that'll help you

695
00:26:24,590 --> 00:26:21,720
navigate UFO secrecy or any other thing

696
00:26:27,289 --> 00:26:24,600
that might happen to you in life

697
00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:27,299
yeah no I agree I think the answers are

698
00:26:31,010 --> 00:26:28,980
probably only going to create more

699
00:26:33,529 --> 00:26:31,020
questions as is so often the case when

700
00:26:35,930 --> 00:26:33,539
you're exploring this topic so have you

701
00:26:37,549 --> 00:26:35,940
surprised yourself over time I know I

702
00:26:38,690 --> 00:26:37,559
definitely at the beginning there were

703
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:38,700
things that I was like I'm not even

704
00:26:42,769 --> 00:26:41,279
entertaining this and now I'm like maybe

705
00:26:45,230 --> 00:26:42,779
so have you surprised yourself with

706
00:26:47,690 --> 00:26:45,240
stuff like that oh yeah a whole lot I

707
00:26:52,190 --> 00:26:47,700
mean the big one right for me is this

708
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:52,200
channeled material or remote viewing you

709
00:26:55,490 --> 00:26:54,480
know kind of tapping into non-local

710
00:26:57,169 --> 00:26:55,500
information

711
00:26:58,850 --> 00:26:57,179
which I guess we could argue is sort of

712
00:27:01,730 --> 00:26:58,860
what channeling is doing to some extent

713
00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:01,740
as well uh I have a very difficult time

714
00:27:07,909 --> 00:27:05,520
with that content because it really is

715
00:27:09,649 --> 00:27:07,919
me just sort of putting trust into the

716
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:09,659
individual and saying well I trust this

717
00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:11,520
person and if they're saying that

718
00:27:14,990 --> 00:27:13,260
they're having this communication or

719
00:27:18,230 --> 00:27:15,000
this download here that word used quite

720
00:27:19,730 --> 00:27:18,240
a lot I gotta download then is it real

721
00:27:21,289 --> 00:27:19,740
what does it mean what does that look

722
00:27:22,730 --> 00:27:21,299
like is it some sort of list of

723
00:27:25,070 --> 00:27:22,740
instructions that show up in your mind

724
00:27:27,950 --> 00:27:25,080
how does it work so I have a very

725
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:27,960
difficult time understanding that

726
00:27:33,289 --> 00:27:30,480
because I don't know that I've

727
00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:33,299
really sat with what it might mean or

728
00:27:37,430 --> 00:27:34,740
tried to interpret it from a different

729
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:37,440
perspective than maybe the kind of

730
00:27:43,490 --> 00:27:41,039
stereotype I give to it and so sitting

731
00:27:45,169 --> 00:27:43,500
with that more has been helpful you know

732
00:27:47,330 --> 00:27:45,179
how do we understand the things that we

733
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:47,340
know how do we get knowledge at all we

734
00:27:52,669 --> 00:27:49,260
tend to think oh somebody is teaching me

735
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:52,679
this and then I mentally acknowledge the

736
00:27:56,390 --> 00:27:54,480
validity of what they've taught me and

737
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:56,400
then now I know what it is you know

738
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:57,600
that's how we think about how we know

739
00:28:01,130 --> 00:27:59,520
things but really is that exactly what's

740
00:28:04,010 --> 00:28:01,140
going on is that how it works entirely

741
00:28:05,930 --> 00:28:04,020
I've Had The Good Fortune of having some

742
00:28:08,029 --> 00:28:05,940
different experiences in altered state

743
00:28:10,909 --> 00:28:08,039
mind experiences and

744
00:28:13,310 --> 00:28:10,919
one one of those experiences taught me

745
00:28:16,430 --> 00:28:13,320
that knowledge is essentially kind of

746
00:28:17,210 --> 00:28:16,440
around us that it's always there that we

747
00:28:20,510 --> 00:28:17,220
can

748
00:28:22,970 --> 00:28:20,520
Intuit into that knowledge in ways that

749
00:28:24,830 --> 00:28:22,980
we don't necessarily think we can and I

750
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:24,840
believe that lines up pretty well with

751
00:28:29,390 --> 00:28:27,120
some of that you know channeling content

752
00:28:31,730 --> 00:28:29,400
now even then you have to remember that

753
00:28:33,230 --> 00:28:31,740
if someone's saying I channeled this or

754
00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:33,240
I got this download or whatever it is

755
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:35,100
they're still going to tell you what

756
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:36,720
they think it means right they're still

757
00:28:40,669 --> 00:28:38,640
gonna they're interpreting whatever that

758
00:28:43,070 --> 00:28:40,679
message is so you have to use a great

759
00:28:44,810 --> 00:28:43,080
deal of discernment with that material

760
00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:44,820
and then you know on something that's a

761
00:28:49,610 --> 00:28:47,100
little bit more like maybe easier to

762
00:28:51,830 --> 00:28:49,620
grok or not quite as out there I think

763
00:28:54,830 --> 00:28:51,840
the extra tempestral model the Michael

764
00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:54,840
Masters you know the aliens or future us

765
00:28:58,909 --> 00:28:57,120
that model is getting a lot of

766
00:29:01,190 --> 00:28:58,919
popularity now I know Darren's really

767
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:01,200
into that one so that one's challenging

768
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:03,360
too because I grew up with Back to the

769
00:29:08,210 --> 00:29:05,520
Future and other shows that would use

770
00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:08,220
time travel as this incredible like

771
00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:10,980
escape from jail card to solve the plot

772
00:29:14,570 --> 00:29:12,360
holes of the show and it just always

773
00:29:16,549 --> 00:29:14,580
annoyed me when time travel was used and

774
00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:16,559
so I'm coming at it with that bias that

775
00:29:20,750 --> 00:29:18,480
it just doesn't seem like it makes any

776
00:29:23,090 --> 00:29:20,760
sense but then again if you entertain

777
00:29:25,130 --> 00:29:23,100
that notion if again space time is not

778
00:29:26,570 --> 00:29:25,140
real if you if time travel is a part of

779
00:29:28,970 --> 00:29:26,580
the equation then a lot of the

780
00:29:31,669 --> 00:29:28,980
phenomenon that we experience and it is

781
00:29:33,350 --> 00:29:31,679
reported can begin to make sense and so

782
00:29:36,049 --> 00:29:33,360
that's definitely one that I'm giving

783
00:29:38,810 --> 00:29:36,059
more attention to and I think has some

784
00:29:41,570 --> 00:29:38,820
real truth to it yeah I definitely agree

785
00:29:44,149 --> 00:29:41,580
with that I think it's interesting but

786
00:29:45,649 --> 00:29:44,159
how quick I used to be to say well that

787
00:29:47,630 --> 00:29:45,659
can't be possible it doesn't make sense

788
00:29:49,250 --> 00:29:47,640
about something like time travel and so

789
00:29:53,409 --> 00:29:49,260
I really actually knew anything about

790
00:29:56,690 --> 00:29:53,419
time travel beyond the plots of movies

791
00:29:58,669 --> 00:29:56,700
like it though I had any kind of grasp

792
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:58,679
of that subject and just being like well

793
00:30:03,649 --> 00:30:00,720
that sounds stupid it's like well based

794
00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:03,659
on what though yeah how do I know yeah

795
00:30:10,010 --> 00:30:06,480
and the more my understanding of the

796
00:30:12,649 --> 00:30:10,020
topic has increased suddenly things that

797
00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:12,659
seemed crazy don't seem so crazy anymore

798
00:30:18,350 --> 00:30:15,480
I can start to understand them and yeah

799
00:30:21,769 --> 00:30:18,360
it's very easy to think that the idea

800
00:30:24,830 --> 00:30:21,779
is stupid not that you maybe don't know

801
00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:24,840
enough about it and I think Learning to

802
00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:27,720
Lean into that a little more to take in

803
00:30:31,549 --> 00:30:29,460
ideas that make me kind of uncomfortable

804
00:30:33,889 --> 00:30:31,559
in a certain way even learning to

805
00:30:35,570 --> 00:30:33,899
respond to ideas that make me

806
00:30:38,029 --> 00:30:35,580
uncomfortable because I'm like what is

807
00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:38,039
it that I don't like about that so much

808
00:30:43,549 --> 00:30:40,760
because sometimes it's really that I'm

809
00:30:45,169 --> 00:30:43,559
intuiting a plot in the argument that I

810
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:45,179
hadn't quite articulated yet but I just

811
00:30:48,409 --> 00:30:46,799
sense it but a lot of times it's

812
00:30:50,450 --> 00:30:48,419
something else entirely that's causing

813
00:30:52,610 --> 00:30:50,460
me to have that negative reaction it's

814
00:30:55,010 --> 00:30:52,620
like that idea is challenging me in some

815
00:30:58,310 --> 00:30:55,020
way that I would not like to be

816
00:30:59,889 --> 00:30:58,320
challenged right now yeah I'm 100 I mean

817
00:31:03,409 --> 00:30:59,899
that's so important right to be

818
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:03,419
attentive to the way we approach this

819
00:31:08,210 --> 00:31:06,360
topic because let's be clear and honest

820
00:31:11,029 --> 00:31:08,220
we're dealing with a great deal of

821
00:31:13,310 --> 00:31:11,039
speculation in this space and it's fun

822
00:31:16,430 --> 00:31:13,320
to speculate it's fun to stretch our

823
00:31:18,110 --> 00:31:16,440
imaginations and hypothesize and imagine

824
00:31:20,149 --> 00:31:18,120
the possibilities like that's something

825
00:31:22,190 --> 00:31:20,159
that we enjoy and something that humans

826
00:31:25,210 --> 00:31:22,200
are really good at doing but I think we

827
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:25,220
need to be careful we need to be

828
00:31:29,690 --> 00:31:27,840
examining the rationale you know why

829
00:31:33,230 --> 00:31:29,700
we're doing that and what it would mean

830
00:31:34,909 --> 00:31:33,240
for us if XYZ were true and then under

831
00:31:37,070 --> 00:31:34,919
asking too I think what are these things

832
00:31:40,250 --> 00:31:37,080
indicative of that's really the big

833
00:31:42,169 --> 00:31:40,260
issue here that these different theories

834
00:31:45,230 --> 00:31:42,179
or experiences what they really are

835
00:31:48,409 --> 00:31:45,240
indicative of is that the model we have

836
00:31:51,230 --> 00:31:48,419
about reality right now is inadequate

837
00:31:53,870 --> 00:31:51,240
it's not taking into account all of the

838
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:53,880
things that happen in human experience

839
00:31:58,730 --> 00:31:56,640
and so we need a better model we need

840
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:58,740
something that helps explain that in a

841
00:32:02,930 --> 00:32:00,000
more accurate way and that's something

842
00:32:05,810 --> 00:32:02,940
that I think the UFO phenomena because I

843
00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:05,820
believe it exists is helping us to

844
00:32:11,389 --> 00:32:07,980
achieve it's pulling us into a future

845
00:32:13,730 --> 00:32:11,399
state where the model is expanding and

846
00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:13,740
covers more of the territory

847
00:32:19,250 --> 00:32:16,440
but keep in mind that that process is

848
00:32:20,690 --> 00:32:19,260
indefinite at least as far as we know we

849
00:32:23,990 --> 00:32:20,700
don't have an experience that it says

850
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:24,000
that the model building ever stops so I

851
00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:25,620
think we can say at least based on our

852
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:27,600
own experience that thus far that that

853
00:32:32,149 --> 00:32:30,000
model building process will continue and

854
00:32:34,909 --> 00:32:32,159
what that means for us now is that we're

855
00:32:36,769 --> 00:32:34,919
wrong like we're inevitably wrong right

856
00:32:38,810 --> 00:32:36,779
we're wrong about a lot of things and

857
00:32:41,029 --> 00:32:38,820
it's okay to be wrong right it's okay to

858
00:32:43,310 --> 00:32:41,039
be wrong about what we understand about

859
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:43,320
the world and acknowledge that and if

860
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:46,620
that's true if we're wrong about maybe

861
00:32:51,470 --> 00:32:49,200
everything then what's important you

862
00:32:53,810 --> 00:32:51,480
know what is important after all of that

863
00:32:56,330 --> 00:32:53,820
is done are we only valid if we have a

864
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:56,340
right model of reality do we only have

865
00:33:01,130 --> 00:32:58,799
personal validity if we have all the

866
00:33:03,049 --> 00:33:01,140
answers I think you'd be silly to answer

867
00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:03,059
that question in the affirmative you

868
00:33:06,950 --> 00:33:05,039
know it can't be true or valid because

869
00:33:09,049 --> 00:33:06,960
of deeper reasons than that and I think

870
00:33:11,149 --> 00:33:09,059
again this comes back to things we

871
00:33:13,310 --> 00:33:11,159
touched on that there are some more

872
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:13,320
fundamental issues at stake here with

873
00:33:18,590 --> 00:33:16,080
the phenomena than just this cool

874
00:33:21,289 --> 00:33:18,600
technology or other beings or whatever

875
00:33:23,750 --> 00:33:21,299
it may be yeah no I agree I think we get

876
00:33:26,330 --> 00:33:23,760
so caught up in trying trying to find

877
00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:26,340
the answers that we forget that we can't

878
00:33:30,289 --> 00:33:28,200
fundamentally find the answers and then

879
00:33:33,289 --> 00:33:30,299
in some ways the real answer is for the

880
00:33:36,169 --> 00:33:33,299
friends we made along exactly I mean

881
00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:36,179
that's my take absolutely yeah I'd love

882
00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:38,340
to ask you a little bit about your

883
00:33:43,130 --> 00:33:40,200
working relationship and your friendship

884
00:33:44,570 --> 00:33:43,140
with with Darren with exo-academian I'm

885
00:33:46,130 --> 00:33:44,580
friends with you both because I love you

886
00:33:47,710 --> 00:33:46,140
both dearly but I know that you guys are

887
00:33:50,990 --> 00:33:47,720
coming at this from a very different

888
00:33:53,389 --> 00:33:51,000
place like Darren is a much more kind of

889
00:33:55,009 --> 00:33:53,399
profound experiencer like I consider

890
00:33:57,950 --> 00:33:55,019
myself an experiencer but I always say

891
00:33:59,870 --> 00:33:57,960
I'm like an experiencer light but Darren

892
00:34:02,389 --> 00:33:59,880
is kind of in the deeper end of the pool

893
00:34:04,370 --> 00:34:02,399
both in his I think experiences and with

894
00:34:06,350 --> 00:34:04,380
some of the connections that he's made

895
00:34:08,750 --> 00:34:06,360
and conversations that he's having about

896
00:34:10,609 --> 00:34:08,760
the stuff at a higher level what is that

897
00:34:12,109 --> 00:34:10,619
like for you to work with him and to be

898
00:34:14,510 --> 00:34:12,119
in a place where you don't have quite

899
00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:14,520
the maybe level of certitude that he has

900
00:34:18,109 --> 00:34:16,260
about certain things but you're just

901
00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:18,119
like very open-minded to the whole thing

902
00:34:22,129 --> 00:34:20,520
what does that look like yeah it's a fun

903
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:22,139
relationship and we've had so many

904
00:34:26,329 --> 00:34:24,720
conversations you know in a way it's

905
00:34:28,730 --> 00:34:26,339
kind of like Darren can be a lot like

906
00:34:31,369 --> 00:34:28,740
Morpheus right so from from The Matrix

907
00:34:33,409 --> 00:34:31,379
you know he has a lot of certitude and

908
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:33,419
strong opinions about what's going on

909
00:34:39,050 --> 00:34:37,200
here and he's offering some really I

910
00:34:41,629 --> 00:34:39,060
think cogent and helpful it's

911
00:34:43,550 --> 00:34:41,639
explanations about what is going on he

912
00:34:44,690 --> 00:34:43,560
like knows ontological Kung Fu you know

913
00:34:48,109 --> 00:34:44,700
that's sort of the way I think about him

914
00:34:49,490 --> 00:34:48,119
and that's really helpful but uh you

915
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:49,500
know you have to kind of find your own

916
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:51,359
voice and in my relationship with him

917
00:34:56,570 --> 00:34:53,280
it's more

918
00:34:58,790 --> 00:34:56,580
I think putting things in neutral trying

919
00:35:01,250 --> 00:34:58,800
to absorb the things that he's

920
00:35:04,190 --> 00:35:01,260
experiencing and recounting and trying

921
00:35:06,370 --> 00:35:04,200
to articulate and be a sounding board

922
00:35:08,690 --> 00:35:06,380
for that in some ways that can be

923
00:35:11,089 --> 00:35:08,700
challenging him on some of those

924
00:35:12,890 --> 00:35:11,099
perceptions particularly in some of the

925
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:12,900
areas that we just touched on earlier

926
00:35:18,109 --> 00:35:15,119
that are sometimes difficult for us to

927
00:35:20,810 --> 00:35:18,119
believe are real so you know really kind

928
00:35:24,109 --> 00:35:20,820
of bouncing those gleanings or insights

929
00:35:26,329 --> 00:35:24,119
off of some critical questions that's

930
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:26,339
kind of what my role is I think in the

931
00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:32,930
Darren is you know he has a passion for

932
00:35:38,329 --> 00:35:35,599
figuring this out he has a passion for

933
00:35:40,609 --> 00:35:38,339
understanding these deeper layers of

934
00:35:42,829 --> 00:35:40,619
reality and he's had that since he was a

935
00:35:46,130 --> 00:35:42,839
young person he's devoted his life in a

936
00:35:49,069 --> 00:35:46,140
way to pursuing these ultimate questions

937
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:49,079
and trying to solve them and so he has

938
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:51,359
this singular focus on that whereas for

939
00:35:56,329 --> 00:35:54,000
me I'm much more I think in the

940
00:35:58,490 --> 00:35:56,339
generalist Camp I'm extroverted by

941
00:35:59,650 --> 00:35:58,500
Nature I like going to the party and

942
00:36:02,270 --> 00:35:59,660
listening to lots of different people

943
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:02,280
and having lots of different experiences

944
00:36:08,329 --> 00:36:06,000
and for me the truth about everything is

945
00:36:11,089 --> 00:36:08,339
embodied in the party itself not like

946
00:36:12,710 --> 00:36:11,099
did I have the right conversation or

947
00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:12,720
make the right connection or understand

948
00:36:17,450 --> 00:36:14,720
the party as it was perfectly

949
00:36:20,329 --> 00:36:17,460
architected that doesn't mean as much to

950
00:36:22,130 --> 00:36:20,339
me as the experience so I think those

951
00:36:24,349 --> 00:36:22,140
are some of the you know kind of the big

952
00:36:26,450 --> 00:36:24,359
differences there he's an incredible

953
00:36:28,130 --> 00:36:26,460
person to chat with and can be very

954
00:36:29,390 --> 00:36:28,140
intense there are many times where it's

955
00:36:31,609 --> 00:36:29,400
like hey Darren what's going on it's

956
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:31,619
just like a string game of stuff you

957
00:36:35,569 --> 00:36:33,540
know that's happening there and you just

958
00:36:37,130 --> 00:36:35,579
sort of have to sit down and you know

959
00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:37,140
kind of make mental notes and come back

960
00:36:42,349 --> 00:36:40,380
to this or that and I like to think that

961
00:36:44,089 --> 00:36:42,359
I'm like a sounding board for him in

962
00:36:46,609 --> 00:36:44,099
many ways he kind of keeps a lot of this

963
00:36:48,109 --> 00:36:46,619
stuff inside as he's digesting it he

964
00:36:50,930 --> 00:36:48,119
likes to use the word metabolizing and

965
00:36:52,730 --> 00:36:50,940
he's metabolizing this content from so

966
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:52,740
many books and so many conversations

967
00:36:57,589 --> 00:36:55,200
he's kind of chewing on it right and

968
00:36:59,510 --> 00:36:57,599
when he eventually spits it out like I'm

969
00:37:01,430 --> 00:36:59,520
kind of sitting there just like taking

970
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:01,440
all that and be like okay wow this was

971
00:37:04,970 --> 00:37:03,119
what is this meal that you just had here

972
00:37:07,490 --> 00:37:04,980
how do we make sense of this

973
00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:07,500
so it is a nice Dynamic I think I hope

974
00:37:11,089 --> 00:37:09,180
that that's what the way it comes across

975
00:37:13,790 --> 00:37:11,099
on our show is that there's this

976
00:37:16,609 --> 00:37:13,800
interplay there between his very I think

977
00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:16,619
strong sense of conviction that he has a

978
00:37:20,329 --> 00:37:18,540
good sense of what's going on here with

979
00:37:22,370 --> 00:37:20,339
me being in the position to really ask

980
00:37:24,410 --> 00:37:22,380
questions and grapple with some of the

981
00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:24,420
more confusing aspects of those

982
00:37:28,010 --> 00:37:25,680
certainties

983
00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:28,020
yeah no it does come across and I really

984
00:37:31,790 --> 00:37:30,060
enjoy that about liminal frames it's one

985
00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:31,800
of my favorite podcasts and I love

986
00:37:35,150 --> 00:37:33,180
listening to it because I love that

987
00:37:38,210 --> 00:37:35,160
Dynamic and I think it's so valuable

988
00:37:40,250 --> 00:37:38,220
also and I admire about you that you're

989
00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:40,260
so willing to be challenged and hang out

990
00:37:44,210 --> 00:37:42,300
in the deep end of the pool even if you

991
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:44,220
know you kind of bring your water wings

992
00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:45,599
and like

993
00:37:49,190 --> 00:37:47,520
because I think that yeah I mean because

994
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:49,200
you can be challenged by somebody like

995
00:37:52,550 --> 00:37:51,119
that right like I'm not nearly as close

996
00:37:53,930 --> 00:37:52,560
to Darren as you are but we've had a

997
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,940
handful of really good conversations

998
00:37:58,670 --> 00:37:56,160
over the last year and they always end

999
00:38:01,250 --> 00:37:58,680
up being very impactful to me and I

1000
00:38:03,790 --> 00:38:01,260
can't necessarily go where Darren goes

1001
00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:03,800
he's very much somebody who's like

1002
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:06,660
hybridization programs are real and the

1003
00:38:10,430 --> 00:38:08,400
Galactic Federation is real and let's

1004
00:38:12,050 --> 00:38:10,440
talk about it you know but because I

1005
00:38:13,490 --> 00:38:12,060
respect him and like you said he's very

1006
00:38:16,010 --> 00:38:13,500
good at kind of taking these things

1007
00:38:18,290 --> 00:38:16,020
apart ontologically and categorizing

1008
00:38:20,690 --> 00:38:18,300
them and kind of making sense of them in

1009
00:38:23,030 --> 00:38:20,700
some sort of a way and pulling out what

1010
00:38:25,490 --> 00:38:23,040
might be going on and so I find that

1011
00:38:27,950 --> 00:38:25,500
very intellectually stimulating and I

1012
00:38:29,930 --> 00:38:27,960
like the way it makes my brain work and

1013
00:38:31,430 --> 00:38:29,940
I like that it challenges me a little

1014
00:38:34,130 --> 00:38:31,440
and makes me think different kinds of

1015
00:38:36,430 --> 00:38:34,140
thoughts but when I'm done I just doggy

1016
00:38:39,650 --> 00:38:36,440
paddle back to my part of the pool

1017
00:38:42,050 --> 00:38:39,660
because I have no real way to I think

1018
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:42,060
it's interesting you know I think all of

1019
00:38:44,990 --> 00:38:43,440
society is going to start going through

1020
00:38:46,670 --> 00:38:45,000
what we've been going through over the

1021
00:38:48,530 --> 00:38:46,680
last couple years of kind of coming to

1022
00:38:50,810 --> 00:38:48,540
terms with this and we're gonna all

1023
00:38:53,450 --> 00:38:50,820
arrive at it with our own perspective

1024
00:38:55,250 --> 00:38:53,460
and not all of us are experiencers on

1025
00:38:57,349 --> 00:38:55,260
that level like not all of us are going

1026
00:38:59,450 --> 00:38:57,359
to have that and I think it's really

1027
00:39:01,910 --> 00:38:59,460
important to

1028
00:39:03,470 --> 00:39:01,920
make room for those voices and allow

1029
00:39:07,329 --> 00:39:03,480
ourselves to be challenged by those

1030
00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:07,339
voices but also to not surrender our own

1031
00:39:13,250 --> 00:39:09,839
perspectives and to not Outsource our

1032
00:39:14,569 --> 00:39:13,260
own sense of Truth and so yeah I admire

1033
00:39:16,670 --> 00:39:14,579
that about your show and I think it

1034
00:39:18,530 --> 00:39:16,680
really kind of models that because I

1035
00:39:20,690 --> 00:39:18,540
think that's the kind of conversations

1036
00:39:23,089 --> 00:39:20,700
that we need to be willing to have as we

1037
00:39:24,589 --> 00:39:23,099
go through this process yeah and the two

1038
00:39:26,450 --> 00:39:24,599
things I want to touch on there that you

1039
00:39:29,030 --> 00:39:26,460
made me think about so one I think that

1040
00:39:30,770 --> 00:39:29,040
a lot of the work that we do on our show

1041
00:39:32,930 --> 00:39:30,780
your show some of the other great shows

1042
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:32,940
that we have in the community is you

1043
00:39:35,930 --> 00:39:34,079
know we're really trying to explore the

1044
00:39:38,270 --> 00:39:35,940
frontiers of this content we're trying

1045
00:39:40,730 --> 00:39:38,280
to push those boundaries of what we

1046
00:39:42,109 --> 00:39:40,740
understand and what it means for us and

1047
00:39:44,870 --> 00:39:42,119
so there's a lot of great work that's

1048
00:39:47,390 --> 00:39:44,880
happening there on that edge of the

1049
00:39:49,069 --> 00:39:47,400
reality space but let's keep in mind

1050
00:39:51,230 --> 00:39:49,079
that there is a lot of low information

1051
00:39:52,609 --> 00:39:51,240
Zone happening out there and I think

1052
00:39:54,530 --> 00:39:52,619
there's a conversation that should be

1053
00:39:56,810 --> 00:39:54,540
had I don't know how best to have it but

1054
00:39:58,970 --> 00:39:56,820
it's with the people who just want to

1055
00:40:00,290 --> 00:39:58,980
scoff at this community and make fun of

1056
00:40:01,910 --> 00:40:00,300
it and say you know we're all kind of

1057
00:40:03,770 --> 00:40:01,920
crazy and we just believe these

1058
00:40:05,690 --> 00:40:03,780
Fantastical things but having a more

1059
00:40:06,890 --> 00:40:05,700
rational conversation about saying you

1060
00:40:08,810 --> 00:40:06,900
know what they're

1061
00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:08,820
even if we're into this subject doesn't

1062
00:40:13,550 --> 00:40:11,700
necessarily We Believe at XYZ or

1063
00:40:15,650 --> 00:40:13,560
everything that is talked about or that

1064
00:40:17,150 --> 00:40:15,660
we're not open to changing our minds

1065
00:40:19,609 --> 00:40:17,160
when presented with some different

1066
00:40:22,190 --> 00:40:19,619
information I think that that's a much

1067
00:40:25,069 --> 00:40:22,200
more genuine way to look at this and to

1068
00:40:26,690 --> 00:40:25,079
treat everyone right so just the same as

1069
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:26,700
if I can get really frustrated with

1070
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:29,280
those who do want to belittle the

1071
00:40:32,810 --> 00:40:31,200
community but I acknowledge that there

1072
00:40:36,170 --> 00:40:32,820
is a point at which if enough

1073
00:40:38,270 --> 00:40:36,180
information comes forward and out if

1074
00:40:41,630 --> 00:40:38,280
enough evidence is there well then they

1075
00:40:43,670 --> 00:40:41,640
will change their minds as well and so

1076
00:40:45,770 --> 00:40:43,680
we have to kind of be in that space and

1077
00:40:48,050 --> 00:40:45,780
to be comfortable with suspending our

1078
00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:48,060
belief to some degree and that's

1079
00:40:51,050 --> 00:40:49,440
important particularly those of us who

1080
00:40:53,510 --> 00:40:51,060
are leading in this conversation we need

1081
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:53,520
to be able to be in a place where we can

1082
00:40:56,870 --> 00:40:55,440
say we want to explore these things we

1083
00:40:59,810 --> 00:40:56,880
think they're fascinating and they

1084
00:41:01,609 --> 00:40:59,820
energize us and they could be true but

1085
00:41:02,990 --> 00:41:01,619
at the same time if we're in a position

1086
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:03,000
where we can say wow okay let's

1087
00:41:06,890 --> 00:41:04,800
reevaluate this and let's kind of

1088
00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:06,900
navigate the world together in what we

1089
00:41:11,210 --> 00:41:09,599
now know that is true I think that's

1090
00:41:12,890 --> 00:41:11,220
really important and that's just true to

1091
00:41:15,530 --> 00:41:12,900
how we live our lives right it's more

1092
00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:15,540
genuine yeah absolutely I think

1093
00:41:20,750 --> 00:41:17,940
something that's so unfortunate about

1094
00:41:21,950 --> 00:41:20,760
where just dialogue in general in this

1095
00:41:24,530 --> 00:41:21,960
country and I think around the world has

1096
00:41:27,349 --> 00:41:24,540
really gotten to is just that

1097
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:27,359
everybody's so certain of everything you

1098
00:41:32,750 --> 00:41:30,240
know like if you have gas prices go up

1099
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:32,760
and suddenly for a couple of news Cycles

1100
00:41:38,630 --> 00:41:35,040
everyone in the world is an expert on

1101
00:41:40,010 --> 00:41:38,640
Apple gas prices are set and what

1102
00:41:41,450 --> 00:41:40,020
percentage of people in the world do you

1103
00:41:43,550 --> 00:41:41,460
think actually understand that like it's

1104
00:41:45,730 --> 00:41:43,560
less than one percent I'm sure that we

1105
00:41:48,770 --> 00:41:45,740
really could have a like cogent kind of

1106
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:48,780
conversation about what is impacting gas

1107
00:41:53,569 --> 00:41:51,359
prices but certainty and being right and

1108
00:41:56,109 --> 00:41:53,579
like my side is right and this side is

1109
00:41:59,270 --> 00:41:56,119
wrong is kind of the basis of our entire

1110
00:42:01,130 --> 00:41:59,280
dialogue and God forbid you'd be wrong

1111
00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:01,140
about something but I mean all of this

1112
00:42:06,230 --> 00:42:04,320
requires speculation like it that's

1113
00:42:09,589 --> 00:42:06,240
what's required here we have to dive

1114
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:09,599
into those low information zones and we

1115
00:42:13,730 --> 00:42:11,520
have to push back against this kind of

1116
00:42:15,770 --> 00:42:13,740
like almost tyrannical idea that's been

1117
00:42:17,329 --> 00:42:15,780
programmed into us that if you pay

1118
00:42:19,069 --> 00:42:17,339
attention to anything in the low

1119
00:42:22,250 --> 00:42:19,079
information zones that you've somehow

1120
00:42:24,050 --> 00:42:22,260
like seeded the intellectual High Ground

1121
00:42:26,690 --> 00:42:24,060
like you have somehow you were

1122
00:42:30,770 --> 00:42:27,950
you know

1123
00:42:33,109 --> 00:42:30,780
it's just a strange way of thinking that

1124
00:42:35,390 --> 00:42:33,119
I think we need to get past yeah it's uh

1125
00:42:36,890 --> 00:42:35,400
it's like toxic rationality and I think

1126
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:36,900
about it in the terms of you know

1127
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:38,640
imagine that you're one of those early

1128
00:42:42,589 --> 00:42:41,040
human communities and you're at the

1129
00:42:44,930 --> 00:42:42,599
campsite at night and you're trying to

1130
00:42:46,310 --> 00:42:44,940
understand what happened to you that day

1131
00:42:48,050 --> 00:42:46,320
or what happened to members of your

1132
00:42:50,569 --> 00:42:48,060
community that day and you've really

1133
00:42:52,430 --> 00:42:50,579
only ever been in that part of your neck

1134
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:52,440
of the woods but somebody that day said

1135
00:42:57,170 --> 00:42:54,480
you know what I went over this Creek

1136
00:42:58,550 --> 00:42:57,180
that we've never been over and I you

1137
00:43:01,130 --> 00:42:58,560
know I found this

1138
00:43:02,390 --> 00:43:01,140
dry stuff I've never seen it before and

1139
00:43:05,329 --> 00:43:02,400
there there aren't trees there anymore

1140
00:43:07,069 --> 00:43:05,339
and it's a lot hotter and people at the

1141
00:43:08,450 --> 00:43:07,079
fire be like yeah I mean we're I don't

1142
00:43:10,309 --> 00:43:08,460
know that just doesn't seem like that's

1143
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:10,319
real and why would we care about that

1144
00:43:13,970 --> 00:43:12,240
and that's probably the way it is for a

1145
00:43:15,829 --> 00:43:13,980
very long time and until eventually

1146
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:15,839
somebody convinces someone else to come

1147
00:43:20,690 --> 00:43:18,240
along and they also experience it and I

1148
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:20,700
saw this too it is real and to then the

1149
00:43:25,069 --> 00:43:22,160
Human family

1150
00:43:26,930 --> 00:43:25,079
collectively gains a new experience we

1151
00:43:28,730 --> 00:43:26,940
journey into that new frontier and

1152
00:43:31,730 --> 00:43:28,740
that's essentially what we are doing and

1153
00:43:33,650 --> 00:43:31,740
advocating for quite frankly is saying

1154
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:33,660
it's worth being a Pioneer it's worth

1155
00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:36,960
going out to these edges to explore the

1156
00:43:41,510 --> 00:43:39,119
experiences that happen along these

1157
00:43:44,210 --> 00:43:41,520
boundary areas along these liminal

1158
00:43:46,730 --> 00:43:44,220
spaces and to take those Explorations

1159
00:43:49,849 --> 00:43:46,740
and examine them and try to share them

1160
00:43:52,849 --> 00:43:49,859
and try to get others to experience them

1161
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:52,859
so that we can know more and our own

1162
00:43:57,470 --> 00:43:55,680
collective experience can be expanded

1163
00:44:00,170 --> 00:43:57,480
and look where it has taken us right

1164
00:44:02,450 --> 00:44:00,180
look what that activity has where that

1165
00:44:04,910 --> 00:44:02,460
has taken us as a human family it's

1166
00:44:07,609 --> 00:44:04,920
taken us to the stars and that's really

1167
00:44:10,250 --> 00:44:07,619
exciting and so many other Frontiers I

1168
00:44:12,050 --> 00:44:10,260
think await us as well but if we never

1169
00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:12,060
did that if we just stayed around that

1170
00:44:16,130 --> 00:44:14,460
fire I mean sure we could eke out our

1171
00:44:17,770 --> 00:44:16,140
existence like that and it would be just

1172
00:44:19,970 --> 00:44:17,780
fine we would just stay there

1173
00:44:22,069 --> 00:44:19,980
indefinitely but there's so much more

1174
00:44:25,490 --> 00:44:22,079
out in the world to love and to explore

1175
00:44:28,190 --> 00:44:25,500
to expand and to challenge us

1176
00:44:30,770 --> 00:44:28,200
absolutely I completely agree

1177
00:44:33,050 --> 00:44:30,780
and I know this process can be really

1178
00:44:34,490 --> 00:44:33,060
challenging for people I know you and I

1179
00:44:36,230 --> 00:44:34,500
we became friends being in a little

1180
00:44:38,030 --> 00:44:36,240
group last summer where we were kind of

1181
00:44:41,150 --> 00:44:38,040
talking through with other people in the

1182
00:44:42,530 --> 00:44:41,160
community sort of what it's like to go

1183
00:44:44,089 --> 00:44:42,540
through this and trying to figure out

1184
00:44:45,890 --> 00:44:44,099
how to live your life in the midst of

1185
00:44:48,650 --> 00:44:45,900
all this so would you mind talking

1186
00:44:50,630 --> 00:44:48,660
through both what your biggest struggles

1187
00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:50,640
have been in metabolizing this world

1188
00:44:53,990 --> 00:44:52,560
view and then also what are the

1189
00:44:56,990 --> 00:44:54,000
positives because I know there's good

1190
00:45:00,050 --> 00:44:57,000
and bad comes with this line of inquiry

1191
00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,060
yeah uh it is a lot it's a lot to

1192
00:45:05,210 --> 00:45:02,400
Grapple with you know there is I think

1193
00:45:07,730 --> 00:45:05,220
on some kind of existential level it's

1194
00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:07,740
very scary right it's very challenging

1195
00:45:13,309 --> 00:45:10,560
to your sense of self your sense of the

1196
00:45:15,650 --> 00:45:13,319
world if you really allow it to come

1197
00:45:17,690 --> 00:45:15,660
into your awareness and into your

1198
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,700
understanding of reality it can really

1199
00:45:21,410 --> 00:45:19,440
kind of take the ground out from

1200
00:45:23,630 --> 00:45:21,420
underneath you and I've certainly felt

1201
00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:23,640
some of that particularly as I try to

1202
00:45:26,990 --> 00:45:25,200
navigate as we said earlier some of

1203
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:27,000
those different spaces you know try to

1204
00:45:31,790 --> 00:45:30,240
navigate UFO space and everyday space

1205
00:45:33,470 --> 00:45:31,800
where I'm just going to work and doing

1206
00:45:35,630 --> 00:45:33,480
my thing and having regular old

1207
00:45:37,370 --> 00:45:35,640
conversations it's always been that

1208
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:37,380
challenge where you're doing that

1209
00:45:42,170 --> 00:45:39,599
whatever mundane silly corporate thing

1210
00:45:43,730 --> 00:45:42,180
that you might do and then on some other

1211
00:45:46,370 --> 00:45:43,740
screen somewhere you're like but we just

1212
00:45:47,930 --> 00:45:46,380
learned about this secret UFO program or

1213
00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:47,940
whatever I mean why do we care about

1214
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:49,680
this spreadsheet we should be caring

1215
00:45:53,870 --> 00:45:51,839
about this that is the biggest you know

1216
00:45:55,910 --> 00:45:53,880
question that we might have ever

1217
00:45:58,430 --> 00:45:55,920
so it's really challenging I think to

1218
00:46:00,829 --> 00:45:58,440
come to your day-to-day and be present

1219
00:46:03,650 --> 00:46:00,839
to your day-to-day when you're also

1220
00:46:05,950 --> 00:46:03,660
really into this other stuff and really

1221
00:46:08,569 --> 00:46:05,960
captivated and drawn into it it can be

1222
00:46:11,470 --> 00:46:08,579
all-consuming if you're not careful you

1223
00:46:14,690 --> 00:46:11,480
can spend all your day on UFO Twitter

1224
00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:14,700
watching all the different podcasts etc

1225
00:46:19,870 --> 00:46:18,000
etc I would discourage everyone from

1226
00:46:22,130 --> 00:46:19,880
doing that don't do it

1227
00:46:24,410 --> 00:46:22,140
for someone who has spent a day or two

1228
00:46:26,329 --> 00:46:24,420
doing that don't do it it's good to

1229
00:46:28,010 --> 00:46:26,339
spend time with people that you love

1230
00:46:30,589 --> 00:46:28,020
doing things that you love that aren't

1231
00:46:32,210 --> 00:46:30,599
related to this so that that's something

1232
00:46:34,309 --> 00:46:32,220
I would encourage people to do just as a

1233
00:46:36,890 --> 00:46:34,319
way to kind of inoculate you against

1234
00:46:38,930 --> 00:46:36,900
getting frazzled yeah absolutely and

1235
00:46:40,849 --> 00:46:38,940
what would you say some of the positives

1236
00:46:42,770 --> 00:46:40,859
have been not to lead the witness too

1237
00:46:45,530 --> 00:46:42,780
much but do you feel weird that there

1238
00:46:47,569 --> 00:46:45,540
have been you know upside in considering

1239
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:47,579
all of this and giving it a space in

1240
00:46:50,750 --> 00:46:48,480
your life

1241
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:50,760
yeah well the positives for me are

1242
00:46:55,609 --> 00:46:53,280
really great because

1243
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:55,619
coming back to where we started with the

1244
00:47:00,589 --> 00:46:57,839
show about my background I grew up in

1245
00:47:03,770 --> 00:47:00,599
this community of Believers of faith in

1246
00:47:04,670 --> 00:47:03,780
a different perspective on the world and

1247
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:04,680
if you grew up in the Christian

1248
00:47:08,450 --> 00:47:06,540
tradition you'll be familiar with this

1249
00:47:10,190 --> 00:47:08,460
phrase in the world but not of the world

1250
00:47:12,230 --> 00:47:10,200
it sounds like something a religious

1251
00:47:15,589 --> 00:47:12,240
community would say but it is I think

1252
00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:15,599
apt for any community of beliefs right

1253
00:47:18,770 --> 00:47:17,040
that you kind of like we just talked

1254
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:18,780
about straddling to get these two spaces

1255
00:47:24,650 --> 00:47:22,319
but what the UFO phenomena has done for

1256
00:47:26,210 --> 00:47:24,660
me personally is it allows me to go back

1257
00:47:28,910 --> 00:47:26,220
to that experience

1258
00:47:31,130 --> 00:47:28,920
to go back to those communities that

1259
00:47:34,190 --> 00:47:31,140
were a big part of my life but that I

1260
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:34,200
completely rejected for at least I don't

1261
00:47:39,050 --> 00:47:36,480
know a decade or two as not being

1262
00:47:41,329 --> 00:47:39,060
important anymore or being kind of you

1263
00:47:44,510 --> 00:47:41,339
know fantasy stories but it's allowed me

1264
00:47:46,849 --> 00:47:44,520
to go back to them and re-enchant those

1265
00:47:49,790 --> 00:47:46,859
experiences and redeem some of those

1266
00:47:52,130 --> 00:47:49,800
experiences and validate some of the

1267
00:47:53,870 --> 00:47:52,140
things that other people were sharing

1268
00:47:56,809 --> 00:47:53,880
with me those things that were

1269
00:47:59,030 --> 00:47:56,819
meaningful to them a very real sense not

1270
00:48:01,970 --> 00:47:59,040
in a delusional sense in a real sense

1271
00:48:05,270 --> 00:48:01,980
and I think that that's true or should

1272
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:05,280
be true for those that that do take this

1273
00:48:10,430 --> 00:48:08,400
seriously because it allows you to make

1274
00:48:13,609 --> 00:48:10,440
some space for breadth of Human

1275
00:48:16,370 --> 00:48:13,619
Experience right instead of you coming

1276
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:16,380
at every person with this toxic

1277
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:18,480
rationality we talked about earlier this

1278
00:48:23,930 --> 00:48:21,119
High modern physicalist materialist

1279
00:48:25,970 --> 00:48:23,940
perspective in living your life in that

1280
00:48:27,770 --> 00:48:25,980
way evaluating every person as someone

1281
00:48:29,870 --> 00:48:27,780
who you can either add to your life or

1282
00:48:32,150 --> 00:48:29,880
subtract your life as an experience that

1283
00:48:34,190 --> 00:48:32,160
is either taking place in Fantasyland or

1284
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:34,200
taking place in reality if it takes

1285
00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:36,240
place in Fantasyland well I don't need

1286
00:48:40,849 --> 00:48:38,000
to have anything to do with this person

1287
00:48:43,010 --> 00:48:40,859
you know forget that they might be one

1288
00:48:44,809 --> 00:48:43,020
of my siblings or my parents or my loved

1289
00:48:46,790 --> 00:48:44,819
ones you know I just think that they're

1290
00:48:48,290 --> 00:48:46,800
crazy now and I absolutely love them

1291
00:48:50,390 --> 00:48:48,300
anyway but I'm also going to think that

1292
00:48:53,329 --> 00:48:50,400
they're crazy so I think for me it's

1293
00:48:55,309 --> 00:48:53,339
moving away from that perspective on the

1294
00:48:58,130 --> 00:48:55,319
world and saying you know there's a lot

1295
00:49:00,770 --> 00:48:58,140
more going on than I understand

1296
00:49:04,190 --> 00:49:00,780
there's a lot more going on than we

1297
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:04,200
understand and to be humbled by that

1298
00:49:11,150 --> 00:49:08,400
right to sit in that awe

1299
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:11,160
because that is powerful it's something

1300
00:49:16,250 --> 00:49:14,160
that we need as individuals in our own

1301
00:49:18,349 --> 00:49:16,260
lives we need that moment where you're

1302
00:49:20,270 --> 00:49:18,359
going to that person that you trust and

1303
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:20,280
you care about and you say I think this

1304
00:49:24,349 --> 00:49:22,800
happened to me it's important to me and

1305
00:49:26,630 --> 00:49:24,359
they respond to you and say I'm

1306
00:49:28,730 --> 00:49:26,640
listening to you you know I care about

1307
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:28,740
you and I understand that that's real

1308
00:49:33,170 --> 00:49:31,440
for you I mean how much more impactful

1309
00:49:35,270 --> 00:49:33,180
is that than them kind of nodding along

1310
00:49:37,430 --> 00:49:35,280
and you knowing that they think that

1311
00:49:39,050 --> 00:49:37,440
you've lost it right so I and I think

1312
00:49:41,930 --> 00:49:39,060
for me that's the way to look at the

1313
00:49:44,329 --> 00:49:41,940
world and just to kind of navigate

1314
00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:44,339
the relationships that I have the

1315
00:49:49,250 --> 00:49:46,079
experiences that I have with a really

1316
00:49:51,230 --> 00:49:49,260
open mind and an open heart also though

1317
00:49:53,150 --> 00:49:51,240
being careful I mean it's important to

1318
00:49:55,550 --> 00:49:53,160
be careful you know you have to use some

1319
00:49:57,829 --> 00:49:55,560
judgment and discernment it's not taking

1320
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:57,839
every claim and saying well that's true

1321
00:50:02,450 --> 00:50:00,480
you know hold things in suspension you

1322
00:50:04,670 --> 00:50:02,460
can still think it's really cool but

1323
00:50:07,010 --> 00:50:04,680
also think it could be wrong you know

1324
00:50:09,170 --> 00:50:07,020
that's okay it's okay to have that

1325
00:50:10,849 --> 00:50:09,180
position but I think it's a lot harder

1326
00:50:13,609 --> 00:50:10,859
to go through life

1327
00:50:15,890 --> 00:50:13,619
taking this stance that you understand

1328
00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:15,900
it and if it doesn't fit within the box

1329
00:50:20,510 --> 00:50:18,240
that you understand then it's just not

1330
00:50:22,970 --> 00:50:20,520
important and so the phenomena has

1331
00:50:24,950 --> 00:50:22,980
really allowed me to basically dismantle

1332
00:50:27,470 --> 00:50:24,960
the Box you know

1333
00:50:29,450 --> 00:50:27,480
the Box doesn't have to be there yeah

1334
00:50:32,089 --> 00:50:29,460
it's become really clear to me that we

1335
00:50:35,210 --> 00:50:32,099
sort of build this facade of consensus

1336
00:50:38,390 --> 00:50:35,220
reality at the expense of

1337
00:50:40,670 --> 00:50:38,400
our relationships with each other and

1338
00:50:43,190 --> 00:50:40,680
even with ourselves you know like you

1339
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:43,200
can if something like really anomalous I

1340
00:50:46,430 --> 00:50:44,880
mean it happened to me many times in my

1341
00:50:48,109 --> 00:50:46,440
life I had been doing this work for a

1342
00:50:50,329 --> 00:50:48,119
while before I realized I'd seen two

1343
00:50:52,250 --> 00:50:50,339
UFOs not just one before I realized that

1344
00:50:54,290 --> 00:50:52,260
I had other you know what people qualify

1345
00:50:56,750 --> 00:50:54,300
as paranormal experiences in my life

1346
00:50:58,609 --> 00:50:56,760
because I just refused to look at them

1347
00:51:00,530 --> 00:50:58,619
that way so I just I never integrated

1348
00:51:03,049 --> 00:51:00,540
them I just rejected them and that and

1349
00:51:04,970 --> 00:51:03,059
of itself is its own sort of

1350
00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:04,980
pain an injury that you can do to

1351
00:51:08,630 --> 00:51:06,480
yourself but also when we think about

1352
00:51:11,210 --> 00:51:08,640
the fact that the more research we do on

1353
00:51:13,069 --> 00:51:11,220
the mechanisms of addiction the more we

1354
00:51:15,770 --> 00:51:13,079
recognize that a lot of that comes back

1355
00:51:19,130 --> 00:51:15,780
to isolation when you think about the

1356
00:51:20,329 --> 00:51:19,140
rise in suicide rates and that sort of

1357
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:20,339
thing and you think about how many

1358
00:51:25,490 --> 00:51:23,280
people are existing in just the state of

1359
00:51:27,609 --> 00:51:25,500
loneliness and how

1360
00:51:30,710 --> 00:51:27,619
for people who have had anomalous

1361
00:51:34,190 --> 00:51:30,720
experiences to not be able to talk about

1362
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:34,200
that or to have it cut you off from the

1363
00:51:38,630 --> 00:51:36,300
people that you love the most like how

1364
00:51:40,849 --> 00:51:38,640
painful and traumatizing that must be

1365
00:51:42,829 --> 00:51:40,859
and it's so strange that we do it

1366
00:51:44,870 --> 00:51:42,839
because like what is mental health

1367
00:51:46,670 --> 00:51:44,880
exactly we really define whether or not

1368
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:46,680
someone's mentally healthy by the extent

1369
00:51:49,569 --> 00:51:48,240
to which their beliefs and behaviors

1370
00:51:52,970 --> 00:51:49,579
conform to

1371
00:51:54,650 --> 00:51:52,980
societal Norms really not because we

1372
00:51:56,990 --> 00:51:54,660
have any kind of a way to actually

1373
00:51:59,270 --> 00:51:57,000
diagnose these things like we can't do a

1374
00:52:01,730 --> 00:51:59,280
blood test we can't you know find

1375
00:52:03,710 --> 00:52:01,740
schizophrenia in your body like we can't

1376
00:52:06,290 --> 00:52:03,720
you know not to say that people don't

1377
00:52:07,790 --> 00:52:06,300
struggle with mental issues and that

1378
00:52:10,370 --> 00:52:07,800
sort of thing but like at the end of the

1379
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:10,380
day why does it really matter as much I

1380
00:52:13,730 --> 00:52:11,520
don't know that it matters so much

1381
00:52:18,890 --> 00:52:13,740
whether or not someone's experience was

1382
00:52:22,609 --> 00:52:18,900
objectively real and what like for us to

1383
00:52:24,589 --> 00:52:22,619
allow them the space to integrate that

1384
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:24,599
experience especially when we know that

1385
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:26,640
there's just such a wide variety of

1386
00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:29,040
things people experience

1387
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:30,720
yeah it just seems weird that we're so

1388
00:52:34,569 --> 00:52:32,160
caught up on like okay but did it happen

1389
00:52:36,829 --> 00:52:34,579
for real for real yeah

1390
00:52:38,329 --> 00:52:36,839
I mean that seems like a weird place to

1391
00:52:40,970 --> 00:52:38,339
get stuck you know yeah I think that

1392
00:52:43,370 --> 00:52:40,980
there's something powerful about doing

1393
00:52:47,390 --> 00:52:43,380
that that individuals that are quick to

1394
00:52:49,970 --> 00:52:47,400
do that you know they feel powerful by

1395
00:52:51,710 --> 00:52:49,980
had a brain that hammered down on these

1396
00:52:53,030 --> 00:52:51,720
things and saying no that's not real

1397
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:53,040
you're crazy

1398
00:52:57,530 --> 00:52:55,440
you know how could you believe these

1399
00:53:00,290 --> 00:52:57,540
things I live in the world of cold

1400
00:53:02,510 --> 00:53:00,300
rationality I understand it all and that

1401
00:53:04,250 --> 00:53:02,520
doesn't fit it doesn't belong here so

1402
00:53:05,450 --> 00:53:04,260
it's really a defense mechanism it's

1403
00:53:07,849 --> 00:53:05,460
protection

1404
00:53:10,490 --> 00:53:07,859
for their understanding of the world

1405
00:53:12,770 --> 00:53:10,500
that's a person that for me hasn't

1406
00:53:14,210 --> 00:53:12,780
actually really gone through a moment of

1407
00:53:16,670 --> 00:53:14,220
challenge like has not had their

1408
00:53:19,250 --> 00:53:16,680
ontology shocked in any way right that

1409
00:53:21,710 --> 00:53:19,260
they have stayed within a pretty safe

1410
00:53:24,290 --> 00:53:21,720
space and they're doing everything that

1411
00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:24,300
they can to maintain the walls of that

1412
00:53:29,329 --> 00:53:27,180
space and look for some people that's

1413
00:53:30,710 --> 00:53:29,339
super important I'm not advocating that

1414
00:53:32,750 --> 00:53:30,720
everybody should go out and be

1415
00:53:34,370 --> 00:53:32,760
destabilized I don't think it's never a

1416
00:53:36,349 --> 00:53:34,380
good recommendation to be instantly

1417
00:53:39,530 --> 00:53:36,359
destabilized right but I think it is

1418
00:53:42,950 --> 00:53:39,540
important to examine our biases be

1419
00:53:44,690 --> 00:53:42,960
present to those around us as if they

1420
00:53:46,670 --> 00:53:44,700
were us how would you treat yourself

1421
00:53:48,770 --> 00:53:46,680
right how would you want to be treated

1422
00:53:50,270 --> 00:53:48,780
in this moment and try to approach

1423
00:53:52,250 --> 00:53:50,280
interactions in that way and this isn't

1424
00:53:53,750 --> 00:53:52,260
new this isn't a new piece of knowledge

1425
00:53:55,430 --> 00:53:53,760
or wisdom right this is stuff that

1426
00:53:58,309 --> 00:53:55,440
that's our greatest thinkers and

1427
00:53:59,510 --> 00:53:58,319
traditions have said for Millennia so I

1428
00:54:00,890 --> 00:53:59,520
tend to think that there's some real

1429
00:54:03,230 --> 00:54:00,900
truth to that

1430
00:54:04,750 --> 00:54:03,240
yeah I absolutely agree

1431
00:54:08,390 --> 00:54:04,760
so

1432
00:54:10,370 --> 00:54:08,400
speaking of being destabilized does any

1433
00:54:12,349 --> 00:54:10,380
of this scare you have you had any Dark

1434
00:54:13,970 --> 00:54:12,359
Nights of the Soul are there moments

1435
00:54:15,470 --> 00:54:13,980
where you've come to a new realization

1436
00:54:17,569 --> 00:54:15,480
about the nature of this phenomenon and

1437
00:54:19,910 --> 00:54:17,579
you've lost sleep over it I mean that's

1438
00:54:20,870 --> 00:54:19,920
cool yeah that's a tough one I don't

1439
00:54:23,930 --> 00:54:20,880
know that I've

1440
00:54:25,849 --> 00:54:23,940
well I haven't lost sleep on this that's

1441
00:54:27,470 --> 00:54:25,859
good all right but I certainly could

1442
00:54:29,930 --> 00:54:27,480
have particularly with some of the

1443
00:54:32,870 --> 00:54:29,940
things that I hear from time to time

1444
00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:32,880
because there are some scary things that

1445
00:54:38,809 --> 00:54:35,700
that are talked about in this space if

1446
00:54:40,730 --> 00:54:38,819
you talk about some of the takeaways

1447
00:54:42,349 --> 00:54:40,740
that experiencers have from their

1448
00:54:44,690 --> 00:54:42,359
encounters I mean one of the common

1449
00:54:49,130 --> 00:54:44,700
threads in those takeaways is some sort

1450
00:54:51,410 --> 00:54:49,140
of catastrophic event in our future that

1451
00:54:55,250 --> 00:54:51,420
whatever trajectory we are on right now

1452
00:54:56,990 --> 00:54:55,260
as a people is not a sustainable one and

1453
00:54:58,910 --> 00:54:57,000
you know as a parent as somebody that

1454
00:55:00,770 --> 00:54:58,920
cares about people I worry about this

1455
00:55:03,109 --> 00:55:00,780
that bothers me I would be frustrated

1456
00:55:06,710 --> 00:55:03,119
and I feel a sense of frustration that

1457
00:55:08,930 --> 00:55:06,720
it could be wiped away maybe not of our

1458
00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:08,940
own choosing but then some would argue

1459
00:55:13,430 --> 00:55:11,520
well you know we are culpable right if a

1460
00:55:15,530 --> 00:55:13,440
catastrophe befalls us we have some

1461
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:15,540
culpability there and I think that's

1462
00:55:20,030 --> 00:55:17,520
important for us to sit with as well

1463
00:55:22,730 --> 00:55:20,040
like examining like the ways in which

1464
00:55:24,589 --> 00:55:22,740
our behaviors contribute to the reality

1465
00:55:26,990 --> 00:55:24,599
we have built around ourselves like the

1466
00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:27,000
world that we have and are we creating

1467
00:55:30,589 --> 00:55:29,040
the world that we want are we adding to

1468
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:30,599
the world that looks like it is right

1469
00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:32,160
now and I think a lot of us sort of feel

1470
00:55:34,910 --> 00:55:33,599
like well I'm powerless I can't do any

1471
00:55:36,770 --> 00:55:34,920
of this you know anything to change this

1472
00:55:38,329 --> 00:55:36,780
you know I can't stop this war that's

1473
00:55:40,130 --> 00:55:38,339
happening what am I supposed to do well

1474
00:55:42,770 --> 00:55:40,140
I mean what can you change can you

1475
00:55:44,450 --> 00:55:42,780
change the things that you buy or the

1476
00:55:46,250 --> 00:55:44,460
way you treat other people or the

1477
00:55:48,109 --> 00:55:46,260
policies that you support these are

1478
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:48,119
things that we can do on an individual

1479
00:55:53,450 --> 00:55:50,640
level you know not to take that too much

1480
00:55:55,250 --> 00:55:53,460
off on a tangent there I think that

1481
00:55:56,930 --> 00:55:55,260
the Dark Knights of the Soul it's

1482
00:55:59,089 --> 00:55:56,940
important to have one

1483
00:56:00,950 --> 00:55:59,099
I think people need to have one people

1484
00:56:03,190 --> 00:56:00,960
need to have that kind of Shadow

1485
00:56:06,650 --> 00:56:03,200
experience or Darkness experience

1486
00:56:08,569 --> 00:56:06,660
because it does strengthen you it does

1487
00:56:10,309 --> 00:56:08,579
teach you that

1488
00:56:11,390 --> 00:56:10,319
you could you remember he's I didn't

1489
00:56:12,710 --> 00:56:11,400
think I could get through that I didn't

1490
00:56:14,750 --> 00:56:12,720
think I'd be able to survive that

1491
00:56:16,910 --> 00:56:14,760
experience but I did survive it and now

1492
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:16,920
here I am and I'm strong for that I'm

1493
00:56:20,270 --> 00:56:18,780
stronger for that and I think that

1494
00:56:22,010 --> 00:56:20,280
that's something that we all need is

1495
00:56:24,890 --> 00:56:22,020
more resilience right a lot more

1496
00:56:26,210 --> 00:56:24,900
resilience and with this topic and the

1497
00:56:28,609 --> 00:56:26,220
scary things that we hear about whether

1498
00:56:31,309 --> 00:56:28,619
they be you know catastrophe or maybe

1499
00:56:33,049 --> 00:56:31,319
some beings with some malevolent intent

1500
00:56:35,030 --> 00:56:33,059
well you know what there are people with

1501
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:35,040
malevolent intent that live in the city

1502
00:56:38,329 --> 00:56:36,480
I live in there are people you know

1503
00:56:40,250 --> 00:56:38,339
catastrophe could befall me at any

1504
00:56:42,109 --> 00:56:40,260
moment I have no control over I mean

1505
00:56:43,309 --> 00:56:42,119
that's true and I shouldn't worry about

1506
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,319
this thing because I can't do anything

1507
00:56:47,690 --> 00:56:45,359
about them and that's sort of the way I

1508
00:56:49,490 --> 00:56:47,700
feel about this stuff as well that you

1509
00:56:51,530 --> 00:56:49,500
know if it happens it happens I gotta

1510
00:56:54,770 --> 00:56:51,540
focus on me and what I can do right now

1511
00:56:57,589 --> 00:56:54,780
in this moment in this day yeah I agree

1512
00:56:59,349 --> 00:56:57,599
I will admit to having lost more sleep

1513
00:57:01,910 --> 00:56:59,359
than you

1514
00:57:03,950 --> 00:57:01,920
I can definitely ruminate and I can

1515
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:03,960
definitely freak myself out I do think

1516
00:57:07,609 --> 00:57:05,760
it's a tough thing to deal with

1517
00:57:10,250 --> 00:57:07,619
especially some of the cataclysm stuffs

1518
00:57:12,410 --> 00:57:10,260
and the leveling entity stuff like if

1519
00:57:15,230 --> 00:57:12,420
you let that get inside you it can

1520
00:57:17,930 --> 00:57:15,240
really kind of mess you up but the thing

1521
00:57:21,230 --> 00:57:17,940
that I really try to focus on

1522
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:21,240
is just because I become aware of it

1523
00:57:27,589 --> 00:57:24,480
doesn't change anything about the nature

1524
00:57:30,290 --> 00:57:27,599
of My reality as it has existed if it's

1525
00:57:32,750 --> 00:57:30,300
true now it was true before and I've

1526
00:57:33,890 --> 00:57:32,760
been mostly fine you know so we have

1527
00:57:36,109 --> 00:57:33,900
this idea like it's going to be like

1528
00:57:38,150 --> 00:57:36,119
Wiley Coyote and you know you've run off

1529
00:57:40,010 --> 00:57:38,160
over the edge of the cliff but then when

1530
00:57:42,349 --> 00:57:40,020
you notice it you have this feeling like

1531
00:57:44,210 --> 00:57:42,359
oh now this is possible that I could

1532
00:57:45,950 --> 00:57:44,220
fall and

1533
00:57:48,589 --> 00:57:45,960
but I don't think that's really how it

1534
00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:48,599
works necessarily and I really do try to

1535
00:57:52,930 --> 00:57:50,640
focus on you know from the litany

1536
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:52,940
against fear fear is the mind killer and

1537
00:57:59,270 --> 00:57:57,119
you know whatever we're up against as a

1538
00:58:00,530 --> 00:57:59,280
human family as you said we're up

1539
00:58:01,910 --> 00:58:00,540
against this together and it's not going

1540
00:58:03,950 --> 00:58:01,920
to do us any good to get all freaked out

1541
00:58:06,109 --> 00:58:03,960
about it you know we just need to kind

1542
00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:06,119
of take it one day at a time

1543
00:58:09,410 --> 00:58:07,920
do what you can do that's in front of

1544
00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:09,420
you and all of these things whether

1545
00:58:13,250 --> 00:58:11,280
we're talking about a massive cataclysm

1546
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:13,260
that may or may not happen and

1547
00:58:16,309 --> 00:58:14,880
malevolent beings who may or may not be

1548
00:58:18,109 --> 00:58:16,319
controlling the Earth those aren't

1549
00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:18,119
things that we have a lot of control

1550
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:20,400
over so those aren't things that you can

1551
00:58:26,990 --> 00:58:24,000
stop all I can really do is try to make

1552
00:58:28,790 --> 00:58:27,000
my little corner of the world better and

1553
00:58:31,490 --> 00:58:28,800
do the work that I can do that's it you

1554
00:58:33,770 --> 00:58:31,500
know and so I try to stay there but I

1555
00:58:36,109 --> 00:58:33,780
will admit to sometimes having a bad

1556
00:58:37,670 --> 00:58:36,119
night about it I mean that's okay right

1557
00:58:38,990 --> 00:58:37,680
I think people will and I hope that

1558
00:58:41,750 --> 00:58:39,000
there are shows out there and content

1559
00:58:43,490 --> 00:58:41,760
out there or forget all that people out

1560
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:43,500
there and those individuals lives that

1561
00:58:47,750 --> 00:58:45,599
are there to help them along the way

1562
00:58:50,270 --> 00:58:47,760
because that's really what it comes down

1563
00:58:52,789 --> 00:58:50,280
to right relationships that's where

1564
00:58:54,770 --> 00:58:52,799
meaning happens that's where we're going

1565
00:58:57,230 --> 00:58:54,780
to navigate any of the challenges that

1566
00:58:58,849 --> 00:58:57,240
we have in life is through relationships

1567
00:59:01,069 --> 00:58:58,859
with other people who are there to care

1568
00:59:02,569 --> 00:59:01,079
for us and we care for them so if you're

1569
00:59:04,370 --> 00:59:02,579
a person who's not doing those things

1570
00:59:06,710 --> 00:59:04,380
you're not caring for anyone you know

1571
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:06,720
you don't treat people well well I mean

1572
00:59:09,829 --> 00:59:07,920
I don't know what to say to you maybe

1573
00:59:12,950 --> 00:59:09,839
start trying that and then see what

1574
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:12,960
comes back yeah absolutely

1575
00:59:17,390 --> 00:59:15,119
so what advice do you have for people

1576
00:59:19,490 --> 00:59:17,400
who are new to this topic we've got new

1577
00:59:21,109 --> 00:59:19,500
people coming in every day and I think

1578
00:59:22,730 --> 00:59:21,119
that wave is only going to grow so what

1579
00:59:23,809 --> 00:59:22,740
advice would you give to people who are

1580
00:59:26,089 --> 00:59:23,819
just starting out and trying to get

1581
00:59:28,549 --> 00:59:26,099
their bearings yeah I mean first and

1582
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:28,559
foremost like And subscribe to Kelly at

1583
00:59:32,450 --> 00:59:30,240
the rabbit hole that's a great program

1584
00:59:33,829 --> 00:59:32,460
she's also got a patreon so jump in on

1585
00:59:36,470 --> 00:59:33,839
that too I think that that is good

1586
00:59:38,210 --> 00:59:36,480
advice personally there but you know try

1587
00:59:41,030 --> 00:59:38,220
to educate yourself right so do the best

1588
00:59:42,950 --> 00:59:41,040
that you can to follow your inclinations

1589
00:59:44,150 --> 00:59:42,960
if you're interested in something learn

1590
00:59:45,710 --> 00:59:44,160
about it see what you can understand

1591
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:45,720
about it and try to find communities

1592
00:59:49,609 --> 00:59:47,280
where people are talking about it and

1593
00:59:50,990 --> 00:59:49,619
you can engage in that conversation to

1594
00:59:52,490 --> 00:59:51,000
surround yourself with some folks who

1595
00:59:54,230 --> 00:59:52,500
are also interested right and it's

1596
00:59:55,370 --> 00:59:54,240
important to I think have some

1597
00:59:56,750 --> 00:59:55,380
friendships where you can talk about

1598
00:59:58,069 --> 00:59:56,760
this stuff right and not everybody has

1599
00:59:59,329 --> 00:59:58,079
that and you hear that a lot I don't

1600
01:00:01,069 --> 00:59:59,339
know if some of your listeners say this

1601
01:00:02,329 --> 01:00:01,079
but a lot of ours do you know I wish I

1602
01:00:04,190 --> 01:00:02,339
had somebody I could talk to about this

1603
01:00:05,690 --> 01:00:04,200
I wish I had a Darren or something I

1604
01:00:07,789 --> 01:00:05,700
could meet for coffee and just chat well

1605
01:00:10,609 --> 01:00:07,799
I know those communities exist they

1606
01:00:12,349 --> 01:00:10,619
exist virtually and on top of that I

1607
01:00:15,589 --> 01:00:12,359
would argue they probably are closer to

1608
01:00:18,589 --> 01:00:15,599
you than you might imagine right so just

1609
01:00:20,390 --> 01:00:18,599
take a moment maybe it was a stranger or

1610
01:00:22,549 --> 01:00:20,400
in this a day-to-day interaction and

1611
01:00:23,870 --> 01:00:22,559
just maybe throw out something that

1612
01:00:25,010 --> 01:00:23,880
you're interested in and say you know we

1613
01:00:26,630 --> 01:00:25,020
thought about this and you'll be

1614
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:26,640
surprised what you hear back a lot of

1615
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:28,559
people at least in my experience will

1616
01:00:31,789 --> 01:00:30,480
come back and be like oh yeah I have XYZ

1617
01:00:33,230 --> 01:00:31,799
and it's like whoa wait a minute how

1618
01:00:34,430 --> 01:00:33,240
many people have had these experiences

1619
01:00:36,530 --> 01:00:34,440
and I think that's part of it right is

1620
01:00:37,970 --> 01:00:36,540
we've stigmatized this so much that we

1621
01:00:40,370 --> 01:00:37,980
don't want to talk about the weird

1622
01:00:41,569 --> 01:00:40,380
things that happen in our lives and we

1623
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:41,579
think that oh that just don't happen to

1624
01:00:44,809 --> 01:00:42,960
other people this was something that you

1625
01:00:46,130 --> 01:00:44,819
know I kind of lost it and it only

1626
01:00:47,870 --> 01:00:46,140
happened to me but it happens to

1627
01:00:49,609 --> 01:00:47,880
everyone I think to some degree or

1628
01:00:52,190 --> 01:00:49,619
another other than that so surrounding

1629
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:52,200
yourself with folks I I think

1630
01:00:56,690 --> 01:00:54,480
it's important to believe in people like

1631
01:00:58,010 --> 01:00:56,700
it's to be present to people you know so

1632
01:00:59,450 --> 01:00:58,020
don't just surround yourself with people

1633
01:01:01,309 --> 01:00:59,460
that are saying yes to you all the time

1634
01:01:03,289 --> 01:01:01,319
and that's ultimately not healthy you

1635
01:01:05,569 --> 01:01:03,299
need some of that right but don't just

1636
01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:05,579
do that I think you need to be present

1637
01:01:09,650 --> 01:01:07,440
with people that have no interest in

1638
01:01:11,630 --> 01:01:09,660
this at all who have interest in many

1639
01:01:14,990 --> 01:01:11,640
other things it's important to have

1640
01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:15,000
diverse interests that can engage you in

1641
01:01:18,890 --> 01:01:17,220
the real world the real world that is

1642
01:01:21,049 --> 01:01:18,900
around you in this moment not that this

1643
01:01:23,630 --> 01:01:21,059
isn't real there's plenty of time you

1644
01:01:25,609 --> 01:01:23,640
can dip into this conversation any time

1645
01:01:27,829 --> 01:01:25,619
of the day if you have that sleepless

1646
01:01:29,809 --> 01:01:27,839
night you can jump in and listen to this

1647
01:01:33,289 --> 01:01:29,819
stuff at any point but to the day to day

1648
01:01:34,910 --> 01:01:33,299
otherwise I would encourage folks to try

1649
01:01:36,890 --> 01:01:34,920
to incorporate some of these practices

1650
01:01:38,410 --> 01:01:36,900
we hear a lot about meditation I think

1651
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:38,420
that's an important thing to try for

1652
01:01:43,789 --> 01:01:41,280
really hard to do I think it also is a

1653
01:01:46,250 --> 01:01:43,799
little over hyped I'm a realist in this

1654
01:01:48,470 --> 01:01:46,260
regard like I love meditation I'm not a

1655
01:01:51,049 --> 01:01:48,480
great meditator I do it on occasion I'm

1656
01:01:54,109 --> 01:01:51,059
not a daily meditator would I benefited

1657
01:01:56,210 --> 01:01:54,119
from it probably but I also recognize

1658
01:01:58,490 --> 01:01:56,220
that there are things that in my life

1659
01:02:01,010 --> 01:01:58,500
where I'm already meditating you know

1660
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:01,020
how am I spending my time what am I

1661
01:02:05,870 --> 01:02:03,599
focusing on and most of us would answer

1662
01:02:08,630 --> 01:02:05,880
that well I'm focusing on

1663
01:02:10,190 --> 01:02:08,640
things that are happening out there and

1664
01:02:11,809 --> 01:02:10,200
to a large extent things that are

1665
01:02:14,510 --> 01:02:11,819
happening in places that I have

1666
01:02:18,170 --> 01:02:14,520
absolutely no connection with so I'm

1667
01:02:21,289 --> 01:02:18,180
focusing attention on you know war and

1668
01:02:22,730 --> 01:02:21,299
strife and problems and correctness and

1669
01:02:25,130 --> 01:02:22,740
all these things that aren't actually

1670
01:02:27,230 --> 01:02:25,140
where I am right now so that is the

1671
01:02:28,370 --> 01:02:27,240
valuable lesson about meditation is it's

1672
01:02:30,530 --> 01:02:28,380
saying well you know what you don't have

1673
01:02:33,230 --> 01:02:30,540
to do that you can turn that focus in

1674
01:02:35,329 --> 01:02:33,240
and explore the Inner Space that you

1675
01:02:38,270 --> 01:02:35,339
have and you and I both know that Inner

1676
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:38,280
Space is really really rewarding and

1677
01:02:42,410 --> 01:02:40,079
will change you and I think make you

1678
01:02:44,589 --> 01:02:42,420
more aware of not only yourself but

1679
01:02:48,109 --> 01:02:44,599
aware of how others are in the world

1680
01:02:49,609 --> 01:02:48,119
yeah I think that's great advice and

1681
01:02:52,069 --> 01:02:49,619
going back to one thing you said about

1682
01:02:54,109 --> 01:02:52,079
finding community and finding people to

1683
01:02:55,730 --> 01:02:54,119
talk to I actually think that's one of

1684
01:02:57,770 --> 01:02:55,740
the biggest needs that we have in the

1685
01:02:58,970 --> 01:02:57,780
community right now because I know you

1686
01:03:00,170 --> 01:02:58,980
were saying it I hear it from my

1687
01:03:01,789 --> 01:03:00,180
listeners all the time I know other

1688
01:03:04,370 --> 01:03:01,799
creators in the space are hearing it all

1689
01:03:07,370 --> 01:03:04,380
the time what everyone wants is that

1690
01:03:09,770 --> 01:03:07,380
they want more opportunities to connect

1691
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:09,780
to talk about this in a serious way not

1692
01:03:13,910 --> 01:03:12,000
with like every troll on Twitter which I

1693
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:13,920
think and you know they want to form

1694
01:03:18,650 --> 01:03:16,559
relationships and and not everyone you

1695
01:03:20,270 --> 01:03:18,660
know has the time or the ability or even

1696
01:03:23,270 --> 01:03:20,280
the care really to go to like

1697
01:03:24,770 --> 01:03:23,280
conferences and meet people in real life

1698
01:03:27,049 --> 01:03:24,780
but I think that there's such a need

1699
01:03:29,150 --> 01:03:27,059
there's such a need there and I don't

1700
01:03:30,650 --> 01:03:29,160
want people to I know I have this really

1701
01:03:32,569 --> 01:03:30,660
irrational idea when I started the

1702
01:03:34,069 --> 01:03:32,579
podcast back in 2021 that I was too late

1703
01:03:34,930 --> 01:03:34,079
to the party that it was too late to

1704
01:03:38,510 --> 01:03:34,940
start

1705
01:03:40,250 --> 01:03:38,520
right you know so there's a lot more

1706
01:03:43,549 --> 01:03:40,260
people come into this party and so I

1707
01:03:46,490 --> 01:03:43,559
think if you're someone who has the

1708
01:03:49,490 --> 01:03:46,500
ability and the inclination to

1709
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:49,500
form communities that's a huge need that

1710
01:03:54,109 --> 01:03:51,839
we have and being able to do that in a

1711
01:03:57,289 --> 01:03:54,119
way that's not ego driven that's really

1712
01:03:59,809 --> 01:03:57,299
about facilitating conversation among

1713
01:04:01,430 --> 01:03:59,819
others that's a hugely valuable skill

1714
01:04:03,710 --> 01:04:01,440
set right now that we do not have enough

1715
01:04:05,990 --> 01:04:03,720
of in the community and it doesn't even

1716
01:04:08,150 --> 01:04:06,000
have to be an online thing I mean I

1717
01:04:10,370 --> 01:04:08,160
think more and more people want to go

1718
01:04:13,010 --> 01:04:10,380
out to Coffee they want people in their

1719
01:04:16,309 --> 01:04:13,020
real life that they can talk to about

1720
01:04:17,930 --> 01:04:16,319
this and so you know start a meet up in

1721
01:04:19,370 --> 01:04:17,940
your area I think more and more people

1722
01:04:20,870 --> 01:04:19,380
are coming to this and the people who

1723
01:04:22,490 --> 01:04:20,880
are like making content we don't

1724
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:22,500
necessarily have time to you know that's

1725
01:04:25,010 --> 01:04:23,760
the thing I get asked for by my

1726
01:04:31,069 --> 01:04:25,020
listeners more than anything else is

1727
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:31,789
um

1728
01:04:36,410 --> 01:04:34,319
and uh and in some ways I don't think I

1729
01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:36,420
should be that person because I'm

1730
01:04:41,089 --> 01:04:39,119
already by just a virtue of the fact

1731
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:41,099
that I'm on a microphone right now you

1732
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:43,200
know my voice is being heard and I don't

1733
01:04:46,490 --> 01:04:44,880
necessarily want to be controlling or

1734
01:04:48,470 --> 01:04:46,500
like moderating a community space

1735
01:04:50,870 --> 01:04:48,480
because I think that that's almost like

1736
01:04:52,670 --> 01:04:50,880
overplaying that hand I don't want to be

1737
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:52,680
shaving the conversation on that level

1738
01:04:55,010 --> 01:04:54,000
you know because I don't think it's

1739
01:04:57,890 --> 01:04:55,020
ethical

1740
01:05:00,049 --> 01:04:57,900
um but I think that I'd love to see it's

1741
01:05:02,210 --> 01:05:00,059
kind of a tangent but just putting a

1742
01:05:04,190 --> 01:05:02,220
call out to the community that if you

1743
01:05:05,809 --> 01:05:04,200
feel inclined to do that or if you're

1744
01:05:07,609 --> 01:05:05,819
looking for those kinds of connections

1745
01:05:09,770 --> 01:05:07,619
maybe you're the person who can make

1746
01:05:11,809 --> 01:05:09,780
that happen for people because I think

1747
01:05:14,930 --> 01:05:11,819
that need is enormous and this is a team

1748
01:05:17,990 --> 01:05:14,940
sport dismantling is a team sport yeah

1749
01:05:21,829 --> 01:05:18,000
100 and look we have in the world today

1750
01:05:23,950 --> 01:05:21,839
a crisis of community generally right

1751
01:05:27,710 --> 01:05:23,960
this is something that everyone

1752
01:05:29,750 --> 01:05:27,720
fundamentally needs and craves but the

1753
01:05:32,210 --> 01:05:29,760
institutions that provided that aren't

1754
01:05:34,549 --> 01:05:32,220
really functional anymore and so so

1755
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:34,559
we're all a little bit adrift in the

1756
01:05:38,569 --> 01:05:36,720
world and trying to navigate virtual

1757
01:05:40,370 --> 01:05:38,579
community and sometimes that works

1758
01:05:41,750 --> 01:05:40,380
really well there are I think a lot of

1759
01:05:43,730 --> 01:05:41,760
good examples of virtual communities

1760
01:05:46,750 --> 01:05:43,740
that are healthy that do a good job

1761
01:05:49,609 --> 01:05:46,760
protecting their membership that Foster

1762
01:05:52,849 --> 01:05:49,619
constructive conversation so they do

1763
01:05:54,470 --> 01:05:52,859
exist it's just hard to find them but I

1764
01:05:56,210 --> 01:05:54,480
mean I can't Echo your point enough that

1765
01:05:58,789 --> 01:05:56,220
if you feel led to do something like

1766
01:06:00,950 --> 01:05:58,799
that it is really needed and that can

1767
01:06:03,410 --> 01:06:00,960
start very small I mean maybe there's

1768
01:06:05,450 --> 01:06:03,420
someone in your neighborhood or your

1769
01:06:06,829 --> 01:06:05,460
apartment complex that you know you've

1770
01:06:08,329 --> 01:06:06,839
had an exchange with and you could say

1771
01:06:10,549 --> 01:06:08,339
hey you want to grab some breakfast do

1772
01:06:12,470 --> 01:06:10,559
you want to just have a chat and don't

1773
01:06:13,970 --> 01:06:12,480
jump right into UFOs but you might end

1774
01:06:15,650 --> 01:06:13,980
up there at some point I mean this is

1775
01:06:18,530 --> 01:06:15,660
just stuff that I think is important to

1776
01:06:21,109 --> 01:06:18,540
try as a human being this engagement

1777
01:06:22,789 --> 01:06:21,119
interaction and I do know that there are

1778
01:06:25,490 --> 01:06:22,799
folks in the community already right now

1779
01:06:28,930 --> 01:06:25,500
who are trying to create these

1780
01:06:33,049 --> 01:06:28,940
experiences for folks that want a more

1781
01:06:35,270 --> 01:06:33,059
focused intensive community the weekend

1782
01:06:37,490 --> 01:06:35,280
or Retreat or something of that nature

1783
01:06:39,829 --> 01:06:37,500
because it is great you and I both know

1784
01:06:42,049 --> 01:06:39,839
like just meeting in person and sharing

1785
01:06:43,849 --> 01:06:42,059
a meal it's really it's healthy it

1786
01:06:46,069 --> 01:06:43,859
strengthens the community and makes us

1787
01:06:47,569 --> 01:06:46,079
better at what we do and I think that

1788
01:06:49,490 --> 01:06:47,579
that's only going to continue to grow

1789
01:06:50,390 --> 01:06:49,500
and the need will continue to grow as

1790
01:06:52,309 --> 01:06:50,400
well

1791
01:06:55,730 --> 01:06:52,319
absolutely agree

1792
01:06:57,349 --> 01:06:55,740
so one last question for those of us who

1793
01:06:59,450 --> 01:06:57,359
are in the community we're already doing

1794
01:07:01,430 --> 01:06:59,460
this work we've done or are doing our

1795
01:07:03,049 --> 01:07:01,440
processing what do you think we can do

1796
01:07:05,809 --> 01:07:03,059
to help the people who are coming behind

1797
01:07:07,309 --> 01:07:05,819
us how can we best be of service to

1798
01:07:09,109 --> 01:07:07,319
people who are going to be going through

1799
01:07:10,130 --> 01:07:09,119
all of this in the coming months and

1800
01:07:13,549 --> 01:07:10,140
years

1801
01:07:16,609 --> 01:07:13,559
yeah that's a tough one right I think

1802
01:07:20,450 --> 01:07:16,619
like a lot of things be a good listener

1803
01:07:22,609 --> 01:07:20,460
be slow to be prescriptive you know it's

1804
01:07:23,990 --> 01:07:22,619
really tempting we've done so much work

1805
01:07:26,329 --> 01:07:24,000
on this right and when we talk about

1806
01:07:28,430 --> 01:07:26,339
these theories and where we are now and

1807
01:07:30,289 --> 01:07:28,440
how we got here and it took us months or

1808
01:07:32,809 --> 01:07:30,299
years to come to some of these positions

1809
01:07:34,549 --> 01:07:32,819
and it can be tempting I think to meet

1810
01:07:35,809 --> 01:07:34,559
someone who's new and say you know what

1811
01:07:37,490 --> 01:07:35,819
great I'm glad you're here by the way

1812
01:07:39,349 --> 01:07:37,500
have you heard of the extra Tempest real

1813
01:07:41,210 --> 01:07:39,359
model like let's jump right into this

1814
01:07:43,130 --> 01:07:41,220
crazy Theory I think that can do more

1815
01:07:45,049 --> 01:07:43,140
harm than good right so I think listen

1816
01:07:47,990 --> 01:07:45,059
to where people are when they're coming

1817
01:07:49,789 --> 01:07:48,000
to you and meet them where they are and

1818
01:07:51,230 --> 01:07:49,799
have an engagement that's the best thing

1819
01:07:53,329 --> 01:07:51,240
that we can do as opposed to just saying

1820
01:07:55,190 --> 01:07:53,339
well I can see that your take is a poor

1821
01:07:56,569 --> 01:07:55,200
take let me give you a better one and

1822
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:56,579
then immediately hope that they're going

1823
01:08:00,650 --> 01:07:58,799
to adopt that that better take I think

1824
01:08:02,750 --> 01:08:00,660
most of our experience people don't

1825
01:08:05,569 --> 01:08:02,760
really warm to someone telling them that

1826
01:08:07,789 --> 01:08:05,579
they're wrong immediately so I think be

1827
01:08:09,529 --> 01:08:07,799
nice be kind be compassionate and help

1828
01:08:11,450 --> 01:08:09,539
people as they do wrestle with these

1829
01:08:13,490 --> 01:08:11,460
questions because they will they

1830
01:08:15,650 --> 01:08:13,500
inevitably will and that's something too

1831
01:08:17,269 --> 01:08:15,660
with all this great content we have you

1832
01:08:18,650 --> 01:08:17,279
could say you know if you know someone

1833
01:08:20,570 --> 01:08:18,660
who's new to this you could say you know

1834
01:08:23,329 --> 01:08:20,580
what where I would start with where you

1835
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:23,339
should start is with this episode or

1836
01:08:27,650 --> 01:08:25,920
this show don't go to this show yet but

1837
01:08:29,269 --> 01:08:27,660
maybe come back to me in a few months

1838
01:08:31,249 --> 01:08:29,279
and then I'm going to introduce you to

1839
01:08:32,990 --> 01:08:31,259
this show because you might be ready for

1840
01:08:34,490 --> 01:08:33,000
that material so I know that's a little

1841
01:08:37,130 --> 01:08:34,500
harder to do because you know we're all

1842
01:08:38,630 --> 01:08:37,140
kind of like in our own fan spaces on

1843
01:08:40,669 --> 01:08:38,640
content that we love and that we

1844
01:08:43,070 --> 01:08:40,679
resonate with but try to remember what

1845
01:08:44,930 --> 01:08:43,080
it was like for you when you were really

1846
01:08:46,490 --> 01:08:44,940
starting the journey and be present to

1847
01:08:48,829 --> 01:08:46,500
that person because that's kind of who

1848
01:08:49,970 --> 01:08:48,839
you're encountering most of the time and

1849
01:08:51,289 --> 01:08:49,980
how do you take them through that

1850
01:08:52,970 --> 01:08:51,299
journey and look this is going to happen

1851
01:08:54,829 --> 01:08:52,980
I think you would agree it's going to

1852
01:08:56,090 --> 01:08:54,839
happen a lot more or I mean a lot more

1853
01:08:57,550 --> 01:08:56,100
conversations that are going to be

1854
01:09:00,050 --> 01:08:57,560
taking place around the kitchen table

1855
01:09:02,209 --> 01:09:00,060
with those that we care about who are

1856
01:09:04,189 --> 01:09:02,219
never interested in this and trying to

1857
01:09:07,010 --> 01:09:04,199
get them to understand where we might be

1858
01:09:08,570 --> 01:09:07,020
now so practice that think about it I

1859
01:09:10,430 --> 01:09:08,580
know a lot of our I love the content

1860
01:09:12,470 --> 01:09:10,440
creators we think about this I I know

1861
01:09:14,570 --> 01:09:12,480
what Darren and I do and DJ and Deb now

1862
01:09:16,729 --> 01:09:14,580
we think about this how do we get folks

1863
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:16,739
onboarded into the conversation in a way

1864
01:09:20,510 --> 01:09:18,960
that is healthy and not immediately

1865
01:09:22,789 --> 01:09:20,520
destabilizing

1866
01:09:24,769 --> 01:09:22,799
yeah absolutely that's a conversation

1867
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:24,779
I've been having with other creators in

1868
01:09:28,309 --> 01:09:26,640
the space as well I think that's really

1869
01:09:29,570 --> 01:09:28,319
important to kind of go along with what

1870
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:29,580
we were saying before about needing

1871
01:09:34,490 --> 01:09:31,920
people to build community we also need

1872
01:09:36,709 --> 01:09:34,500
people like all stages of this talking

1873
01:09:38,150 --> 01:09:36,719
to people you know you don't have to be

1874
01:09:40,130 --> 01:09:38,160
somebody who's been studying this for

1875
01:09:43,249 --> 01:09:40,140
decades and has this like deep

1876
01:09:45,470 --> 01:09:43,259
encyclopedic knowledge of this topic to

1877
01:09:47,749 --> 01:09:45,480
make a difference right now there are a

1878
01:09:49,669 --> 01:09:47,759
lot of people who are just starting to

1879
01:09:51,050 --> 01:09:49,679
consider stuff and you might just be a

1880
01:09:52,430 --> 01:09:51,060
little ways down the road past where

1881
01:09:54,169 --> 01:09:52,440
they are but you can have those

1882
01:09:55,430 --> 01:09:54,179
conversations and I really like the way

1883
01:09:57,050 --> 01:09:55,440
you talked about that meeting people

1884
01:09:58,729 --> 01:09:57,060
where they are don't throw them into the

1885
01:10:00,050 --> 01:09:58,739
deep end just create them where they are

1886
01:10:02,090 --> 01:10:00,060
and then maybe give them that next

1887
01:10:04,550 --> 01:10:02,100
little piece you know I think curiosity

1888
01:10:06,110 --> 01:10:04,560
is such a strong way to communicate with

1889
01:10:07,910 --> 01:10:06,120
people is to speak to their own

1890
01:10:09,830 --> 01:10:07,920
curiosity which may not be the thing

1891
01:10:10,550 --> 01:10:09,840
that you're most curious about but you

1892
01:10:12,470 --> 01:10:10,560
know

1893
01:10:14,450 --> 01:10:12,480
honoring that and listening to someone

1894
01:10:16,130 --> 01:10:14,460
else and hearing what's alive for them

1895
01:10:17,570 --> 01:10:16,140
and being like Oh you're into that you

1896
01:10:19,610 --> 01:10:17,580
might want to check this out and just

1897
01:10:22,430 --> 01:10:19,620
recognizing that there's a thousand ways

1898
01:10:24,169 --> 01:10:22,440
to walk this same road I guess yeah

1899
01:10:25,370 --> 01:10:24,179
totally although as you were saying that

1900
01:10:27,350 --> 01:10:25,380
I'm like sometimes it is fun to push

1901
01:10:30,350 --> 01:10:27,360
people on a deep end

1902
01:10:34,970 --> 01:10:32,390
she was cautioned but the position is

1903
01:10:36,530 --> 01:10:34,980
carefully the right person yes yeah that

1904
01:10:38,450 --> 01:10:36,540
would even take it for sure

1905
01:10:41,090 --> 01:10:38,460
well Nathan this has been such a fun

1906
01:10:43,430 --> 01:10:41,100
conversation I value you and your voice

1907
01:10:44,510 --> 01:10:43,440
in this community so much and I knew

1908
01:10:46,490 --> 01:10:44,520
you'd be the best person on this

1909
01:10:48,410 --> 01:10:46,500
conversation with and yeah this was

1910
01:10:50,510 --> 01:10:48,420
wonderful so thank you so much for